Return of Christ

[Ingledsva]

BTW, this thread is about the Return of Christ,...

They thought Jesus had completed the first part of prophecy and would be right back to finish it.



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[paarsurrey]

Is it ok to disagree with Paul?
Or must Paul be accepted as infallible ?

I don't think Paul was bad per say. I think he did what he thought was right. I just don't agree with some of his ideals.

So say a person agrees with Jesus but finds reason to disagree with some of Paul's teachings, would that person still receive salvation.

I think I agree though, Paul elevates Jesus to divinity. Eliminate Paul and Jesus becomes a Rabbi.

I agree with you.

Elevating Jesus to divinity is the work of Anti-Christ to start with.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

They thought Jesus had completed the first part of prophecy and would be right back to finish it.

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The Second Coming of Jesus is for clarifying that Jesus was not god; and it is Paul's work to elevate him to divinity.

Regards

 

[Ingledsva]

The Second Coming of Jesus is for clarifying that Jesus was not god; and it is Paul's work to elevate him to divinity.

Regards

I believe Paul's job was to infiltrate the group and take them off course.


It doesn't actually say anywhere that Jesus is God/trinity.


They came from the Jewish religion with God being ONE only, and the Messiah being a special HUMAN sent from God to do a job.


EDIT - What do you mean by - to clarify the he wasn't Jesus? He was claiming to be the Messiah sent from God (not a God) - which would mean he causes the end, and final Judgment.



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[Desert Snake]

I believe Paul's job was to infiltrate the group and take them off course.


It doesn't actually say anywhere that Jesus is God/trinity.


They came from the Jewish religion with God being ONE only, and the Messiah being a special HUMAN sent from God to do a job.


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I've said many times that Christianity is more than that, but you just don't seem to understand, or not want to understand. Your idea of what Christianity is, is completely secular as if you are only reading the NT and getting all your information from there, yet you would never do that with other religions. You haven't done your homework, basically, and it's giving you a warped view of the religion.

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe Paul's job was to infiltrate the group and take them off course.


It doesn't actually say anywhere that Jesus is God/trinity.


They came from the Jewish religion with God being ONE only, and the Messiah being a special HUMAN sent from God to do a job.

I've said many times that Christianity is more than that, but you just don't seem to understand, or not want to understand. Your idea of what Christianity is, is completely secular as if you are only reading the NT and getting all your information from there, yet you would never do that with other religions. You haven't done your homework, basically, and it's giving you a warped view of the religion.

LOL! How exactly am I not understanding, and only reading the Christian Bible, - when I am talking about the expected JEWISH Messiah from the Jewish view?

The expected JEWISH Messiah is a special human sent from YHVH - not a God. YHVH is ONE only.



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[Desert Snake]

LOL! How exactly am I not understanding, and only reading the Christian Bible, - when I am talking about the expected JEWISH Messiah from the Jewish view?

The expected JEWISH Messiah is a special human sent from YHVH - not a God. YHVH is ONE only.



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Uh, yeah, nevermind. Has it even occurred to you that I know your viewpoint? And that I know you can't look at Christianity that way? That's what you're not getting here, I already know everything you're saying, and it isn't accurate as to how one should view Christianity. It's the same with Judaism, you likewise make similar mistakes because of the methodology in which you are interpreting Scripture, and applying your logic to traditions etc.

 

[Ingledsva]

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They thought Jesus had completed the first part of prophecy and would be right back to finish it.
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I thought I should qualify this.

If you read acts 2 - which is right after Jesus' death - they state that things predicted are happening concerning the end. They cite Joel, and say what is happening right then, is what was predicted of the end.


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Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.


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Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.


Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

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They immediately doubled their efforts to bring people in, and they gave away their possessions, - because they expected a quick return of Jesus.



Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


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And here is the end time prophecy of Joel that they were quoting and saying was happening RIGHT THEN.



Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward, That I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit.

30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.



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[Ingledsva]

Uh, yeah, nevermind. Has it even occurred to you that I know your viewpoint? And that I know you can't look at Christianity that way? That's what you're not getting here, I already know everything you're saying, and it isn't accurate as to how one should view Christianity. It's the same with Judaism, you likewise make similar mistakes because of the methodology in which you are interpreting Scripture, and applying your logic to traditions etc.

That is hilarious coming from you - who tell us you are a non-traditional Christian.

And you don't like me taking info straight from the Bible??? LOL???


There is a difference between what the Bible actually says - and the "traditions" made-up by man.


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[Desert Snake]

That is hilarious coming from you - who tell us you are a non-traditional Christian.

And you don't like me taking info straight from the Bible??? LOL???


There is a difference between what the Bible actually says - and the "traditions" made-up by man.


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Not sure what this means...?

 

[Ingledsva]

Not sure what this means...?

You think you can make up your own tradition? and then call me out for actually using the texts?


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[Desert Snake]

You think you can make up your own tradition? and then call me out for actually using the texts?


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Nope, it's about reading the traditions of various churches, then there is no way you can simplify Christianity in the manner you do, it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.

 

[Ingledsva]

Nope, it's about reading the traditions of various churches, then there is no way you can simplify Christianity in the manner you do, it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.

LOL! Sure it doesn't!



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[InChrist]

The expected JEWISH Messiah is a special human sent from YHVH - not a God. YHVH is ONE only.



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I think what many of the Jewish religious leaders of Jesus' day missed and many still miss today (not just Jews) is that YHWH states He is the only ONE who is the Savior (Isaiah 43:11; 45:21), then Jesus birth, life, death, and resurrection fulfilled many detailed messianic prophecies and the NT records that at first Jewish individuals and groups testified that He was the Savior of the world, the promised Christ, Messiah (Luke 2:11; John 4:42). This testimony has continued since that time and throughout history in the lives of multitudes, including many Jewish people.

I believe this reveals that Jesus (the SON) is YHWH who interacted with the nation of Israel in the past, who personally in flesh (who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness Philippians 2:6-7) and paid for the sins of humanity, and who has promised, in both the Hebrew scriptures and NT to come again to save His people, deliver Israel, judge the wicked and reign upon the earth from Jerusalem (Isaiah 9:7; 16:5; Zechariah 14:4; Luke 21:25-27; Rev. 22:12-20).

For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with His truth. Psalm 96:13

 

[Ingledsva]

I think what many of the Jewish religious leaders of Jesus' day missed and many still miss today (not just Jews) is that YHWH states He is the only ONE who is the Savior (Isaiah 43:11; 45:21), then Jesus birth, life, death, and resurrection fulfilled many detailed messianic prophecies


ING - You seem to be missing a few obvious points.

It is the awaited Jewish Messiah. Jesus was claiming to be that Messiah.

That Messiah was to be a special human, not a God - there is only ONE God.

Isaiah is NOT about Jesus. Emmanuel is Isaiah's son by the Temple Virgin.

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As to Isaiah 43:11 and 45:21 - you are making the same mistake many Christians make because Christianity in its Bible translations "fudges" what is actually being said, - by, for instance, putting "Lord" instead of YHVH. Christians then assume it is talking about Jesus. Both verses are about YHVH.


As you should know - the only ONE that can actually bring salvation - in the Jewish sense - by sending a special "human" Messiah - is YHVH.

YHVH is not Jesus - and those YHVH verses are not about Jesus.


Isaiah 43:11 I, I am YHVH; and without Me there is no Rescue/Salvation.


Isaiah 45:21 Declare and bring near; yea, let them consult together. Who has revealed this of old; who has told it from then? Is it not I, YHVH? And there is no Elohiym other than Me; a just El and a Savior; compared to Me they are nothing.


and the NT records that at first Jewish individuals and groups testified that He was the Savior of the world, the promised Christ, Messiah (Luke 2:11; John 4:42). This testimony has continued since that time and throughout history in the lives of multitudes, including many Jewish people.


ING - He would still fit under such as the expected SPECIAL HUMAN Messiah, sent by YHVH, whom was expected to bring the end, and final Judgment.



I believe this reveals that Jesus (the SON) is YHWH who interacted with the nation of Israel in the past, who personally in flesh (who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;


ING - NOPE! Isaiah is about Emmanuel Isaiah's Son, the war over Jerusalem, and has a lot of YHVH verses. There is NO JESUS in these Jewish verses.



rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness Philippians 2:6-7) and paid for the sins of humanity, and who has promised, in both the Hebrew scriptures


ING - Again, NO Jesus anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures.


and NT to come again to save His people, deliver Israel, judge the wicked and reign upon the earth from Jerusalem (Isaiah 9:7; 16:5; Zechariah 14:4; Luke 21:25-27; Rev. 22:12-20).

For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with His truth. Psalm 96:13

And again - as the awaited JEWISH Messiah, which he was claiming to be, - he could still do these. In fact this Messiah is to bring the Final Judgment. AND - this Messiah is NOT God.



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[Call_of_the_Wild]

LOL! And where does that say they agreed with him?

They agreed with him enough to pass down a creed that was formulated within 5 years of the cross, as Paul himself stated (1Corin 15:3-7)

They are astonished that the creep chasing them is claiming a vision giving him control.

Um, he preached that Jesus is the Son of God, Ingle. He had previously approved of Stephen getting stoned for proclaiming the Word, now all of a sudden, HE was proclaiming the Word. So yes, they were astonished.

Winning over Damascus Jews doesn't mean he fooled the disciples.

He said he met with Peter and James..and was eventually given the creed, Ingle. So apparently, he did fool the disciples.

A few verses later we get this -
Act 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

Act 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Act 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.

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They were skeptical about him at first, as I'm sure people would have been skeptical about Hitler after the Holocaust if afterwards he suddenly became a Jew.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Apostles were sent to the group later know as the "Hellenists," too.


Obviously these disciples and their followers, did not believe in Paul.


Apparently they had enough common sense not to trust someone that had tried to Kill Christians, - and was now taking over - "claiming" a vision on the road.


Others were against these new teachings as well -

ACTS 6:8-15 8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”


These and other verses show that Paul was not readily accepted by all.



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The fact of the matter is, Paul was accepted by PETER and JAMES. That is all that matters. Peter was a first hand source that testified directly to the Resurrection, and he was one of Jesus' right hand men. If Paul was good enough to be accepted by Peter, a person that Jesus DIRECTLY choose to be one of his disciples, then Paul should be accepted by individuals who lived more than 2000 years later that are typing on religious forums.

 

[Ingledsva]

They agreed with him enough to pass down a creed that was formulated within 5 years of the cross, as Paul himself stated (1Corin 15:3-7)



Um, he preached that Jesus is the Son of God, Ingle. He had previously approved of Stephen getting stoned for proclaiming the Word, now all of a sudden, HE was proclaiming the Word. So yes, they were astonished.



He said he met with Peter and James..and was eventually given the creed, Ingle. So apparently, he did fool the disciples.




They were skeptical about him at first, as I'm sure people would have been skeptical about Hitler after the Holocaust if afterwards he suddenly became a Jew.

Nothing you have said, changes a single thing that I have said.


We have verses proving they didn't trust him.


And I'm guessing with good reason.





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[Ingledsva]

The fact of the matter is, Paul was accepted by PETER and JAMES. That is all that matters. Peter was a first hand source that testified directly to the Resurrection, and he was one of Jesus' right hand men. If Paul was good enough to be accepted by Peter, a person that Jesus DIRECTLY choose to be one of his disciples, then Paul should be accepted by individuals who lived more than 2000 years later that are typing on religious forums.

The breaking off of the different groups shows that they had problems with Paul. And of course we have verses telling us so.


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[InChrist]

And again - as the awaited JEWISH Messiah, which he was claiming to be, - he could still do these. In fact this Messiah is to bring the Final Judgment. AND - this Messiah is NOT God.



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I am afraid it is too late for any Messiah to appear, other than Jesus Christ, in order to fulfill biblical prophecy because there has not been a Temple in Jerusalem since 70 AD.


"There are more than 300 Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Why? So Israel could identify Him, when in the fullness of time God would send forth his Son (Gal:4:4). The third chapter in the Bible contains the first prophecy of the Messiah's coming, His virgin birth ("the seed of the woman") and His destruction of Satan (Gen:3:15). The prophets declared that He must be of the "lineage of David" (Jer:23:5; 2 Sam:7:10-16; Ps:89:3-4 ) and rule upon David's throne. To prove that Jesus met this criteria, Matthew and Luke begin with the genealogy of Joseph and Mary.

Having rejected Jesus, the Jews still hope for their Messiah to come—but they hope in vain. Jesus Christ fulfilled Malachi:3:1 ("the Lord [Messiah], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple") when He cast out the money changers and merchants (Mk 11:15). The destruction of the temple 38 years later in A.D. 70 made it impossible during the last 1,923 years for any would-be Messiah to fulfill that scripture. Moreover, all genealogic records were lost in the destruction of the temple, so a future "Messiah" would not be able to prove the necessary descent from David."

excerpt from:
The Cradle & the Cross (original) | thebereancall.org