Return of Christ

[outhouse]

I am with you here! John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Are you talking about the Buddha connection? OMG I am not sure who came first!

POE?

You can use other scripture to help, but in this case it wont help. its not in the bible.

It is cultural anthropology actually.



This is a matter of you placing yourself in their shoes, and knowing what the meaning of their words is.


This lack of answering is just one example of how you do not understand enough to determine whether it is the English interpreters or the authors themselves.

If you miss details this simple, imagine how lost overall you are to what the true meaning is.

 

[outhouse]

Looking it up doesn't help either. Christian interpretation seem all over the place.

The mustard seed to these people was an evasive weed that was hard to control, and once its roots were set in, was also hard to get rid of.

In relationship to the Christian movements beginnings before it was popular. because at this time, it was like a mustard seed. Small just beginning, but dug in like a tick on a hound dog



Now apply that to the parables, and see if you understand the parables more clearly


In the Gospel of Matthew, the parable is as follows:


He set another parable before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches."

— Matthew 13:31–32, World English Bible

In the Gospel of Mark:


He said, “How will we liken the Kingdom of God? Or with what parable will we illustrate it? It’s like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, though it is less than all the seeds that are on the earth, yet when it is sown, grows up, and becomes greater than all the herbs, and puts out great branches, so that the birds of the sky can lodge under its shadow.”

— Mark 4:30–32, World English Bible

In the Gospel of Luke:


He said, “What is the Kingdom of God like? To what shall I compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and put in his own garden. It grew, and became a large tree, and the birds of the sky lodged in its branches.”

— Luke 13:18-19, World English Bible

 

[savagewind]

The mustard seed to these people was an evasive weed that was hard to control, and once its roots were set in, was also hard to get rid of.

In relationship to the Christian movements beginnings before it was popular. because at this time, it was like a mustard seed. Small just beginning, but dug in like a tick on a hound dog



Now apply that to the parables, and see if you understand the parables more clearly


In the Gospel of Matthew, the parable is as follows:


He set another parable before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches."

— Matthew 13:31–32, World English Bible

In the Gospel of Mark:


He said, “How will we liken the Kingdom of God? Or with what parable will we illustrate it? It’s like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, though it is less than all the seeds that are on the earth, yet when it is sown, grows up, and becomes greater than all the herbs, and puts out great branches, so that the birds of the sky can lodge under its shadow.”

— Mark 4:30–32, World English Bible

In the Gospel of Luke:


He said, “What is the Kingdom of God like? To what shall I compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and put in his own garden. It grew, and became a large tree, and the birds of the sky lodged in its branches.”

— Luke 13:18-19, World English Bible

OK. It proved very true. But what about the birds? Why did your ancients put THEM in the picture?

 

[outhouse]

OK. It proved very true. But what about the birds? Why did your ancients put THEM in the picture?

That gets complicated.

I don't know the answer without research on it.


Many parables to us are completely lost forever because we don't know the original context.

 

[InChrist]

The only thing preserved here, are important scriptures that were compiled and or copied from previous sources, by unknown authors, from a different community then Jesus, written decades after the events, by another culture then Jesus belonged too!

Far removed from any actual event.


This is not up for debate, it is the reality here you need to deal with.


Knowledge and education will not change your faith, it will give you a better appreciation for the lessons and morals in the text.


The reality is we can only guess, maybe Q and or Thomas is a good start. But these may only reflect Galilean parables which would include all of John the Baptist teachings as well since Jesus took over his movement and teachings.

I think the reality is that it would be wise for you to rethink in which sources you place your faith in because the evidence supports that the gospels accounts were passed on by eyewitnesses.

"If anyone has been listening to the news media or been educated in Western universities in religion courses, he or she has heard that the Gospels do not reflect the teaching and deeds of Jesus, except a kernel. Instead, they reflect the distant and faint musings of anonymous disciples, according to their needs. This heavy-handed skepticism comes from nearly a century of scholarship, particularly of the Protestant variety that had been heavily influenced by the Enlightenment (see this article and the first section). Hyper-skepticism has penetrated many seminaries and churches for decades.
Now, however, the tide may be turning, not least because of the books selected in the Reference and Further Reading section, next. The Gospels are founded on eyewitness testimony and reports about the ministry of Jesus, in Israel, around four decades before the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD. The Gospels are not rooted in the faint memories of disciples who lived long after that timeframe and far away from Jesus’ home country. The Gospels were not written by disciples who felt free substantially to change the traditions, according to their current needs. Rather, the Gospels, taken within their cultural literary context, accurately embody the teaching and activity of Jesus.
It may be true that the earliest Christian communities had the need to understand the teaching of Jesus within their own context. However, the eyewitnesses passed on his words and activities, reliably, faithfully, and skillfully. The qualified transmitters sometimes adapted and interpreted – not fabricated or substantively changed – the Jesus traditions. But the transmitters maintained and conformed themselves to these traditions. The Jesus traditions came first, authoritatively and firmly. The transmitters were reverent about them, as we saw in Paul’s epistles in Q & A One to Three, above.
Thus, web readers who also revere Scripture do not need to feel nervous about listening to skeptical claims bandied about in the popular media, nor do students who take Scripture seriously need to feel intimidated in their religion courses at colleges and universities.
The Gospels transmissions are reliable, without a breakdown, in their own historical and literary context."

https://bible.org/seriespage/gospel-traditions-melt-your-mouth


BTW, Jesus did not "take over" John the Baptist's movement, because John the Baptist did not have a movement. John was a prophet foretold of in the Hebrew scriptures who would prepare the way of the Lord and John himself was aware of this.

 

[outhouse]

I think the reality is that it would be wise for you to rethink in which sources .

:biglaugh:

STOP hating education and knowledge because of ignorance.

Now, how about you using something credible, instead of biased apologetics?

 

[outhouse]

John was a prophet foretold of in the Hebrew scriptures

.

:biglaugh:

im sorry but you cannot use the bible to prove the bible.



These people/authors did not even know their own origins, and carry no credibility towards real history.

Sorry try again.


I have already shown you how lost you are, and only the western education and knowledge you discount from ignorance will help you.

 

[Pegg]

They don't need to see Him, but the scriptures claim they will. The passages are irrefutable in the Greek and English, Pegg. I know its hard for you to accept because that is not what the WT teaches, but that is what scripture teaches.

Ok, well lets say you are right, who gets to see him first?

People in the southern hemisphere or the northern? How is it possible he will appear to all mankind everywhere at the same time physically?

The passages and their grammar are clear--It is Jesus Christ who will manifest [epiphanea] Himself. As other passages confirm. Obviously His signs will also be seen, but His appearing will follow and every eye will see [optomai] Him. Just as the scriptures state. Perhaps a visit to a spiritual "optometrist" will help you "optomai" past your doctrinal bias.

So if that verse is speaking about Jesus, then it is Jesus who dwell in unapproachable light who no man has seen nor can see...

1 Tim 6:13  Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.

true?

 

[james2ko]

Ok, well lets say you are right, who gets to see him first? People in the southern hemisphere or the northern? How is it possible he will appear to all mankind everywhere at the same time physically?

Jer_32:27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?​

His coming is a supernatural event. It stands to reason God will supernaturally cause all to see Him. Just as He opened the eyes of the servant with Elisha (2 ki 6:14-17)

So if that verse is speaking about Jesus, then it is Jesus who dwell in unapproachable light who no man has seen nor can see...

1 Tim 6:13  Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.true?

As I explained here, there was a transition made from Christ to the Father in verse 16. Additionally, the Greek phrase used in Rev 19:16 when Christ is called, "King of kings and Lord of lords," is not the same Greek phrase used in 1 Tim 6:15 when the Father is called "King of kings and Lord of lords.:"

[Christ] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING G935 OF KINGS,G935 AND LORD G2962OF LORDS.G2962

[God the Father] 1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King G935 of [the] kings,[kingships-G936] and Lord G2962 of [the] lords [lordships-G2961]​

Christ's title denotes a ruler over rulers, but God's title expresses more of one who places kings over others. This is consistent with Jesus' response to James' and John's mother who asked Jesus to assign positions of authority to her sons. Jesus replied this right was only reserved for the Father:

Mat 20:23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."​

 

[Desert Snake]

Jer_32:27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?​

His coming is a supernatural event. It stands to reason God will supernaturally cause all to see Him. Just as He opened the eyes of the servant with Elisha (2 ki 6:14-17)



As I explained here, there was a transition made from Christ to the Father in verse 16. Additionally, the Greek phrase used in Rev 19:16 when Christ is called, "King of kings and Lord of lords," is not the same Greek phrase used in 1 Tim 6:15 when the Father is called "King of kings and Lord of lords.:"

[Christ] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING G935 OF KINGS,G935 AND LORD G2962OF LORDS.G2962

[God the Father] 1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King G935 of [the] kings,[kingships-G936] and Lord G2962 of [the] lords [lordships-G2961]​

Christ's title denotes a ruler over rulers, but God's title expresses more of one who places kings over others. This is consistent with Jesus' response to James' and John's mother who asked Jesus to assign positions of authority to her sons. Jesus replied this right was only reserved for the Father:

Mat 20:23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."​

Jesus the man here is delineated from the Jesus as God form, clearly indicated in Revelations. Jesus as man taught of course that He was 'man' to an extent, but the Revelations Titles are only reserved for God/Jesus Himself.
One either accepts this fact of the NT, or not.

If we examine this in a more..say, secular manner, one has to understand that not everything in the Bible is literal linear according to "belief adherence", well you know that, but what it means as well, is that, information we don't get in one Book, we might get in another, despite what we think of 'timeline' events.

 

[Desert Snake]

When the 'same' titles are used for God and Jesus, it is to indicate that they aren't 'they', but the same Deity.

 

[Pegg]

Jer_32:27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?​

His coming is a supernatural event. It stands to reason God will supernaturally cause all to see Him. Just as He opened the eyes of the servant with Elisha (2 ki 6:14-17)

well there you are... a 'supernatural' event is not 'physical' (thats why its called 'supernatural')

Jesus doesnt have to present himself physically, nor will he.

But he will use supernatural means so that people around the world will know that he is taking action against them.

As I explained here, there was a transition made from Christ to the Father in verse 16. Additionally, the Greek phrase used in Rev 19:16 when Christ is called, "King of kings and Lord of lords," is not the same Greek phrase used in 1 Tim 6:15 when the Father is called "King of kings and Lord of lords.:"

Didnt' the Father give Jesus the title of 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords'?
Revelation 17:14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”


or are you now going to say that the Father is also the Lamb? You see what happens when you get one little scripture wrong...you get a whole bunch of them wrong.

for some reason I thought you didnt believe in the trinity...

 

[james2ko]

well there you are... a 'supernatural' event is not 'physical' (thats why its called 'supernatural') Jesus doesnt have to present himself physically, nor will he. But he will use supernatural means so that people around the world will know that he is taking action against them.

A supernatural event can and does include "natural" /physical attributes. The bible is full of them. Joshua's long day, opening of the red sea, etc. These were supernatural events the people involved physically "saw" with their own eyes. Just as God opened up Elisha's servant's eyes to physically "see" the horses and chariots, He will open the eyes of humans to physically "see" [optomai] the coming of His son. Just as the original Greek clearly indicates.

Didnt' the Father give Jesus the title of 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords'? Revelation 17:14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” or are you now going to say that the Father is also the Lamb? You see what happens when you get one little scripture wrong...you get a whole bunch of them wrong. for some reason I thought you didnt believe in the trinity...

I just explained how the two titles are not the same in the Greek. And you simply ignored it to perpetuate your doctrine. You see what happens when you blindly follow the writings of men instead of reading and studying the scriptures for yourself?

 

[james2ko]

When the 'same' titles are used for God and Jesus, it is to indicate that they aren't 'they', but the same Deity.

The two titles are not the same. Different Greek words are used for each. As illustrated here.

 

[Pegg]

A supernatural event can and does include "natural" /physical attributes. The bible is full of them. Joshua's long day, opening of the red sea, etc. These were supernatural events the people involved physically "saw" with their own eyes. Just as God opened up Elisha's servant's eyes to physically "see" the horses and chariots, He will open the eyes of humans to physically "see" [optomai] the coming of His son. Just as the original Greek clearly indicates.

yes, i agree.

But it doesnt mean that Jesus has to actually be here in physical form does it?
He can appear immaterially, in a supernatural display. So yes, i agree with you.

I just explained how the two titles are not the same in the Greek. And you simply ignored it to perpetuate your doctrine. You see what happens when you blindly follow the writings of men instead of reading and studying the scriptures for yourself?

God makes Jesus manifest. Even in the greek there are two different individuals under discussion.

But the one who 'dwells in unapproachable light' is the subject and according to the verse, he is to be 'revealed'

So when i asked you who is the one who will be revealed, you immediately said Jesus which is correct. Yet the scripture says that the one who dwells in unapproachable light is the one who will be revealed. So it is Jesus who dwells in unapproachable light.....unless you think it is God Almighty who will be revealed???

 

[Muffled]

I think it is becoming clear that God's kingdom is coming to earth soon and many of the biblical signs for the return of Jesus Christ to are in place and others are rapidly continuing to occur. Does anyone else sense the nearness of His return?


For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with His truth. Psalm 96:13


lBirth Pangs - ABC's of Prophecy

I am thinking around 2038 but I have been wrong before.

 

[Muffled]

yes, i agree.

But it doesnt mean that Jesus has to actually be here in physical form does it?
He can appear immaterially, in a supernatural display. So yes, i agree with you.




God makes Jesus manifest. Even in the greek there are two different individuals under discussion.

But the one who 'dwells in unapproachable light' is the subject and according to the verse, he is to be 'revealed'

So when i asked you who is the one who will be revealed, you immediately said Jesus which is correct. Yet the scripture says that the one who dwells in unapproachable light is the one who will be revealed. So it is Jesus who dwells in unapproachable light.....unless you think it is God Almighty who will be revealed???

I believe this erseindicates He does: Acts 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

 

[Desert Snake]

The two titles are not the same. Different Greek words are used for each. As illustrated here.

Jesus is speaking as man. Notice as well, He says, <Matthew 20:23> "..who will sit on my right hand, who will sit on my left.." Hmm wait a minute, Supposedly Jesus sits 'next' to God, so how is that possible if Jesus says "My" left or right. It would seem the instance of Jesus the man sitting 'next' to God is metaphor.

"My" indicates Jesus is referring to Himself as God, when not in man form. His "Father" is the Deity aspect of His man incarnation.
Hence the monotheism, as well, in the church doctrine.

 

[Pegg]

I believe this erseindicates He does: Acts 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

he returned to heaven invisibly. They were watching him disappear into a cloud and as they continued to stand looking at the 'clouds', an angel asked them why they stand looking at the clouds for Jesus?.... then the angel said "he will come in the same manner"

Hence when Jesus returns it will be in the same way.... we might as all stand looking at the 'clouds' because thats all we'll see.

 

[james2ko]

yes, i agree. But it doesnt mean that Jesus has to actually be here in physical form does it? He can appear immaterially, in a supernatural display. So yes, i agree with you.

He will appear in the clouds and every one will supernaturally see Him. There are many passages that tell us what happens next. He will descend to the Mount of Olives and rule right here on earth from Jerusalem:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Zec_14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Zec 2:10-13 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD. 11 "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!"

Amo 1:2 And he said: "The LORD roars from Zion, And utters His voice from Jerusalem; The pastures of the shepherds mourn, And the top of Carmel withers."

Psa 84:5-7 What joy for those whose strength comes from the LORD, who have set their minds on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. 6 When they walk through the Valley of Weeping, it will become a place of refreshing springs. The autumn rains will clothe it with blessings. 7 They will continue to grow stronger, and each of them will appear before God in Jerusalem. (NLT)

Psa 102:15-16 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD, And all the kings of the earth Your glory. 16 For the LORD shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory.

Psa 2:6-7 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion." 7 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Zec 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.' ​

And there are more.

God makes Jesus manifest. Even in the greek there are two different individuals under discussion. But the one who 'dwells in unapproachable light' is the subject and according to the verse, he is to be 'revealed' So when i asked you who is the one who will be revealed, you immediately said Jesus which is correct. Yet the scripture says that the one who dwells in unapproachable light is the one who will be revealed.

The Greek word order suggests it is the Father who dwells in unapproachable light who will manifest (reveal) Christ. Kudos to the NWT translators who got the word order in vs 15 correct:

13 Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the &#64257;ne public declaration before Pontius Pilate, d I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, e 15 which the happy and only Potentate [The Father] will show in its own appointed times. He [The Father] is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, a who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see[Vs 15 can only refer to the Father. It cannot refer to Christ because he has been seen]. c To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.​

As you can see. It is the Father (the king of kingships-one who appoints kings) who "will show" reveal/ manifest His King!