RF Every day sexism

[Alceste]

(Welcome back!)

I'm only half-back. People pay me money to shoot my mouth off on the internet now as of two months ago - so I'm trying to spend my online time earning dinero. Less time for shooting my mouth off for free.

But now I'm drunk, and it's Friday night, and I've racked up enough billable hours for one month, so bring it on!

I have a niggle. I don't know if I would call it "sexism", but I've got this old flame that has basically driven me from facebook. Basically, every time I log on, he PMs me with overtly sexual messages. This is a guy I dated TWENTY YEARS ago. We're both married now. We only dated for a couple of months. What the hell. I swear he was not nearly this much of a perv when I banged him. I think it's a midlife crisis or something.

Really, I just want to complain about it. Not even from a feminist angle. I just think it's annoying when people approach me from a mainly sexual angle, full stop. Nothing to do with gender. I'd like to think that's annoying for everyone, however much we might fantasize about it. It's shallow. A discussion of quantum physics or pre-christian philosophy is SO MUCH SEXIER than a discussion of sex, for me.

Am I right?

 

[Badran]

I had a sexual assault once in high school. It's kind of like what MysticSang'ha described happening to her, but I didn't handle it as efficiently at the time.

I was at lunch, sitting at a table on the outer perimeter of the cafeteria with friends. This guy sat with us that day, who was loosely acquainted with one of the boys at our table, and he just kind of made himself at home at the table. He was a senior, older than me, and very suave and handsome and all that, and he started making people laugh and stuff, so we thought he was cool.

After a few minutes, he started turning his sights towards me, flirting, which I didn't mind at first. He went to the vending machine, and then came back and sat next to me rather than in the chair he was at before, and started to really directly flirt. Like, he brushed his fingers through my hair, complemented me a ton, said I smelled nice, just started making loose contact to break the touch barrier, and then he tickled my side, and I was beginning to feel uncomfortable but was still kind of playing along with it because at the time I felt that I didn't want to make a scene. I did tell him to stop but I purposely made it not sound serious.

But then, he quickly put his hand right on my lower abdomen, under my top, with his finger tips right at the edge of my jeans. I put my hand on his wrist to try to push it away, still without making a scene, and I didn't think he would ever do what he ended up doing. People at the table were laughing because they thought he was tickling me again, since they could see his arm over toward me but the table was blocking the view. Before I could react, he did what I didn't think he'd do, and quickly reached his hand down under my jeans and underwear between the legs, purposely stopping just short of directly touching my private area. I grabbed his wrist to pull his hand out but he was using strength to keep it in, moving his finger around right above that area, which was still a very sensitive spot to be touching, especially when not consensual. After a few seconds (table friends thought I was being tickled, freaking out), I got away from him and slid toward the other end of the table.

At that point I should have left and gone to the principle or something, but I was in some kind of shock where I just didn't want to move, didn't want anyone to look at me, and still didn't want to make a scene. My friends saw that something was wrong, nobody was sure what, and the bell was about to ring at any moment. There was like an awkward minute where I was pretending to focus on eating the remainder of my food while other people, including the guy, were doing kind of the same thing. In my head I was preparing myself to knock the wind out of him if he moved near me. The bell rang and I got out of there, he found me in the hallway and was like, "You know I was just kidding right? I didn't mean anything, just playing around." but I just got away from him, didn't want to talk to him, didn't want him near me.

I never had any contact with him after that. It was running through my head a lot that day as I replayed the scene in my head, feeling foolish for letting him violate my space inch by inch. I was annoyed at how it happened, how he flirted, got positive feedback, flirted more directly and started violating my personal space, and then the next second he's literally in the pants.

By the next day I was back to normal, and mostly forgot about it.

I'm sorry you had to go through an experience like that.

I think your reaction was pretty basic and normal in the circumstances, especially considering some parts like him being older and the fact that he was gaining favor with you all. Shock seems very natural.

I think from all the stories i've come to know which were similar to this, yours has the most disgusting guy. I'm glad it didn't bother you for long.

 

[Badran]

Dumb, surely. But also, to my mind, inexcusably cruel.

I'm making this post on the slight chance that anyone -- male or female -- might still be making an effort -- an open-minded effort -- to understand how deeply my friend felt after what the girl's pulled on him.

My experience is admittedly limited, but most men (and I do indeed mean most) fear being rejected by a woman they are attracted to more than they fear being alone.

If I had a dollar for each time some man I've known has refused to ask out a woman because he couldn't make himself face the acute misery of rejection, I could pay a month's rent. And if I had ten dollars for each time some man I've known has spent his entire single's life asking out only women he wouldn't too terribly mind being rejected by, instead of the women he really wants to ask out, I could pay the following month's rent.

I believe that in all likelihood, rejection is the typical male's most powerfully entrenched sexual fear. Men have now and then sought my advice through-out my adult life, and that's their number one issue, so far as I can recall.

So, perhaps you can partly imagine what it could be like for a man -- especially a relatively inexperienced man -- to encounter, not mere rejection, but rejection pointedly aimed at humiliating him, by a woman he longs will think well of him.

My apologies to anyone who read this and didn't want to hear it.

I couldn't make the same conclusions you made with any level of confidence, but i at least agree that this must have been incredibly abusive to your friend.

I would also guess that it must have took him a considerably long time to deal with it, if he actually did.

 

[Sunstone]

I have a niggle. I don't know if I would call it "sexism", but I've got this old flame that has basically driven me from facebook. Basically, every time I log on, he PMs me with overtly sexual messages. This is a guy I dated TWENTY YEARS ago. We're both married now. We only dated for a couple of months. What the hell. I swear he was not nearly this much of a perv when I banged him. I think it's a midlife crisis or something.

What a jerk! I can't think of anything actually useful to say, though. Just that I wish he was gone.

I just think it's annoying when people approach me from a mainly sexual angle, full stop. Nothing to do with gender. I'd like to think that's annoying for everyone, however much we might fantasize about it. It's shallow. A discussion of quantum physics or pre-christian philosophy is SO MUCH SEXIER than a discussion of sex, for me.

Honestly, Alceste, when I was much, much younger and almost constantly feeling sexually deprived (as opposed to "sexually depraved", which is what I usually feel these days), I fantasized about women wanting nothing more than sex with me.

Hah! There's never a problem with such fantasies until they have mostly come true. I doubt any woman has wanted nothing but sex from me, but I've experienced several women apparently wanting nothing but this or that thing from me.

I'll give just one example: When I employed people, I discovered my attractiveness suddenly took a far leap upwards -- but only, I thought, with women who most likely wanted to score with the boss simply because he was the boss.

And yeah, I thought of them as shallow, too shallow to take them up on it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm only half-back. People pay me money to shoot my mouth off on the internet now as of two months ago - so I'm trying to spend my online time earning dinero. Less time for shooting my mouth off for free.

But now I'm drunk, and it's Friday night, and I've racked up enough billable hours for one month, so bring it on!

I have a niggle. I don't know if I would call it "sexism", but I've got this old flame that has basically driven me from facebook. Basically, every time I log on, he PMs me with overtly sexual messages. This is a guy I dated TWENTY YEARS ago. We're both married now. We only dated for a couple of months. What the hell. I swear he was not nearly this much of a perv when I banged him. I think it's a midlife crisis or something.

Really, I just want to complain about it. Not even from a feminist angle. I just think it's annoying when people approach me from a mainly sexual angle, full stop. Nothing to do with gender. I'd like to think that's annoying for everyone, however much we might fantasize about it. It's shallow. A discussion of quantum physics or pre-christian philosophy is SO MUCH SEXIER than a discussion of sex, for me.

Am I right?

A new job? Congrats, then.

I can't speak for others, but if I were in your shoes and someone constantly sent me unsolicited PMs on Facebook, sexual or otherwise, I'd ask them to stop and most likely defriend them if they didn't. I'd consider it to be disrespectful at best, in addition to being harassment.

That said, I can't say much else on this, as I've never been targeted by someone through uninvited communication like that.

 

[Badran]

Honestly, Alceste, when I was much, much younger and almost constantly feeling sexually deprived (as opposed to "sexually depraved", which is what I usually feel these days), I fantasized about women wanting nothing more than sex with me.

I'm both sexually deprived and depraved, but my fantasies still revolve around emotional aspects. That is, the sexual element is within a larger context of emotional intimacy.

What does that make me? A fool?

 

[Sunstone]

I would also guess that it must have took him a considerably long time to deal with it, if he actually did.

In my experience, it is far, far easier to overtly "deal" with such things than it is to unlearn their lessons. Their lessons can sometimes be learned so deeply we become unconscious of them.

The night my friend called me, he was already "dealing" with it admirably. He told me the story in detail, but he wasn't crying; his voice wasn't strained, and it didn't break. He even reassured me, as most men would, that he was "already over it" (But then, of course, why was he calling?). As you know, Badran, men are like that: We deal with things.

We also learn things. Sometimes more than we know we've learned. I just hope my friend didn't learn a damn thing beyond what jerks some people can be.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm both sexually deprived and depraved, but my fantasies still revolve around emotional aspects. That is, the sexual element is within a larger context of emotional intimacy.

What does that make me? A fool?

Buck-up like a Real Man™, Badran, before you shame every Real Man™ on this Board! When I said I was "sexually depraved" I certainly did not mean to imply the sort of sexual depravity you're now wallowing in. The sexual depravity of seeking emotional intimacy! What's next for you? Sending flowers to known criminals?

 

[Sunstone]

... I've never been targeted by someone through uninvited communication like that.

But I thought you were getting my PMs!

 

[Sunstone]

...the sexual element is within a larger context of emotional intimacy.

A little more seriously, Badran, if I had a daughter, I'd probably beat you with a rather thick stick until you at last consented to date her, and then feel gratitude towards you that you did. With your attitude, a young woman would be very lucky to have you, even despite the alarming
likelihood you would be totally clueless how to at all pleasantly seduce her.

 

[DreadFish]

I'm both sexually deprived and depraved, but my fantasies still revolve around emotional aspects. That is, the sexual element is within a larger context of emotional intimacy.

What does that make me? A fool?

It makes you a hopeless romantic! High five! Welcome to the club!

 

[Sunstone]

It makes you a hopeless romantic! High five! Welcome to the club!

There goes the neighborhood! The property value of Real Manliness™ just plummeted. Thanks a lot, you two!

 

[Me Myself]

I think part of the problem is that most people -- and perhaps especially men -- are taught to dismiss "teasing" and "being led on" as something less than sexual harassment. But what else to call it? So far as I've seen, It can amount to the psychological and emotional equivalent of butt grabbing. At least, the victim of it can come away blaming themselves, feeling humiliated, questioning their worth, etc.

This happened to a friend: I suppose he was targeted by the girls because they thought him ridiculous in a way. That is, he was in his mid-twenties at the time and still just as shy, socially awkward, and sexually inexperienced as he had been in his teens. I can imagine for those and other reasons, the girls thought it would be good fun to humiliate him. Especially after he one day made the mistake of hinting that he was interested in one of them. How totally pretentious of him!

So, the girls played out an elaborate prank. Over a couple weeks, they encouraged him to think that the girl he was interested in was just as interested in him -- but because her brother disliked him, she was secret about her interest.

They urged him to anonymously send her expensive flowers and candy, which he foolishly consented to. Then they assured him she was so pleased with the gifts and attention that he should finally drop all anonymity and ask her out.

When he did, the girl he was now very hopeful about, responded as you might imagine. She laughed in his face, told him what a dog he was, said he must be full of himself to think she'd be interested in him, and ran to tell her friends all about it.

It happened at the workplace they all shared, and so he overheard the all girls laughing at him that day, but he couldn't leave for fear of losing his job.

He called me that night, and he wasn't in a very pretty shape.

If you don't want to call that sexual harassment, maybe you can find a way to call it emotional harassment. To me, the aftereffects can be much the same. Humiliation, feelings of worthlessness, self-blame, etc.

I wouldnt call it sexist, but I would call it extreme emotional attack.

I wouldnt be surprised the woman had no idea how honestly destructive that would be to him though.

Sometimes people can be really heartless and cruel just for the "fun" of it. It's sad.

 

[Me Myself]

This is something extremely common in ecuador but there are "wanted" things for certain jobs that talk specifically about wanting a female for the charge.

There is a job, I am not sure how it would be accurately translated but it is for advertising agencias "ejecutiva de cuentas" (the "ejecutiva" part says it must be a woman. "ejecutivo" would mean male/gender-neutral )

The job is a good one and a well payed one.

I think it has to do with the association of women being better dealing with people, because the job is one that can easily make yourself be hated inside the agency. It requires a lot of nagging to people about when they got their designs and productions ready, organization and planning of the meetings, etc.

I suspect they think people are less likely to want to kill a nagging woman than a nagging man

I dont really know for a fact why the discriminate against men for such job though.

the frustrating part is I ve seen stuff of such describing me about everything except the fact that they need a woman for the job. Of course, I wont even show up for such interview or ask for the job... though I think I should at least ask... if anything out of curiosity for the blatant gender selection...

 

[Alceste]

A new job? Congrats, then.

Kind of - it's LIKE a job, except that I can do it drunk, in my pyjamas, without getting out of bed, and it pays better than any of my previous jobs. I feel like I won the job lottery. Lol.

I can't speak for others, but if I were in your shoes and someone constantly sent me unsolicited PMs on Facebook, sexual or otherwise, I'd ask them to stop and most likely defriend them if they didn't. I'd consider it to be disrespectful at best, in addition to being harassment.

That said, I can't say much else on this, as I've never been targeted by someone through uninvited communication like that.

Yeah - I dunno. The thought crossed my mind, but it's also a bit of an ego boost to imagine that somebody I banged a few times 20 years ago is still thinking about it. That's probably why we're still friends. Granted, I expect he's trying to sex chat up every female friend who logs into facebook and there's nothing special about me, but it's a curious thought all the same. I tend to assume I don't make much of an impression. It's possible that maybe I do, at least sometimes, and not always a negative one.

What a jerk! I can't think of anything actually useful to say, though. Just that I wish he was gone.

Yeah - it is kind of a jerk thing to do, isn't it. I'm just sitting there reading updates about kiteboarding, upcoming gigs and kitten birth announcements and all of a sudden POW "hey sexy - remember that time when we bla bla bla in the yada yada? That was so hot..." Lol - and I actually don't remember. I remember waking up in his bed with a cockroach crawling across my pillow, prematurely trying to like Asian Dub Foundation and arguing about vegetarianism like it was yesterday, but nothing about hot sex in a back alley.

I have a feeling he doesn't remember the cockroach, Asian Dub Foundation and the argument about vegetarianism. Maybe I'm the jerk.

Honestly, Alceste, when I was much, much younger and almost constantly feeling sexually deprived (as opposed to "sexually depraved", which is what I usually feel these days), I fantasized about women wanting nothing more than sex with me.

Hah! There's never a problem with such fantasies until they have mostly come true. I doubt any woman has wanted nothing but sex from me, but I've experienced several women apparently wanting nothing but this or that thing from me.

I'll give just one example: When I employed people, I discovered my attractiveness suddenly took a far leap upwards -- but only, I thought, with women who most likely wanted to score with the boss simply because he was the boss.

And yeah, I thought of them as shallow, too shallow to take them up on it.

Yeah - the gender-based power dynamic in sex is a strange one. I've never understood it. I generally don't get along with bosses, let alone find them attractive. They often conclude I have an attitude problem, and not one has ever hit on me. I think women can be massive retards in that respect. No offense to women. It's most noticeable at my guy friends' gigs. Women are totally ridiculous at gigs. I'm like "what the ****, women? Get it together. Playing a guitar and wearing tight pants is NOT THAT HARD."

But I thought you were getting my PMs!

I've got my hands full with my own PMS.

 

[Sunstone]

I tend to assume I don't make much of an impression.

Oh, I don't know. Whenever I think of "much younger women that I wish I'd met someone like them when I was their current age", your name pops up quite often enough.

I have a feeling he doesn't remember the cockroach, Asian Dub Foundation and the argument about vegetarianism.

Strange what we remember and what we forget, isn't it? I used to think my first wife and I had sex so often that sex would be the thing I most remembered and missed about her. Turns out, I don't recall much of that, but I can still hear her laughing at my jokes.

Yeah - the gender-based power dynamic in sex is a strange one. I've never understood it. I generally don't get along with bosses, let alone find them attractive. They often conclude I have an attitude problem, and not one has ever hit on me. I think women can be massive retards in that respect. No offense to women. It's most noticeable at my guy friends' gigs. Women are totally ridiculous at gigs. I'm like "what the ****, women? Get it together. Playing a guitar and wearing tight pants is NOT THAT HARD."

The thing that used to astonish me, Alceste, is how often it happened. My older brother put it in perspective for me: He had taught a few classes when he was a grad student, and had come across the same thing. I took his advice, though, not to let it go to either head.

I've got my hands full with my own PMS.

Nicely played.

 

[Aquitaine]

Oh, I don't know. Whenever I think of "much younger women that I wish I'd met someone like them when I was their current age", your name pops up quite often enough.



Strange what we remember and what we forget, isn't it? I used to think my first wife and I had sex so often that sex would be the thing I most remembered and missed about her. Turns out, I don't recall much of that, but I can still hear her laughing at my jokes.



The thing that used to astonish me, Alceste, is how often it happened. My older brother put it in perspective for me: He had taught a few classes when he was a grad student, and had come across the same thing. I took his advice, though, not to let it go to either head.



Nicely played.

Don't let it go to either head? Hahahaha!

:biglaugh:

 

[Badran]

I just hope my friend didn't learn a damn thing beyond what jerks some people can be.

I like the way you put it. Such experiences can often cost the person more in what they influence him/her to think and do afterwards.

 

[Badran]

A little more seriously, Badran, if I had a daughter, I'd probably beat you with a rather thick stick until you at last consented to date her, and then feel gratitude towards you that you did. With your attitude, a young woman would be very lucky to have you

That's the kindest thing anyone has ever said to me. I'm forever grateful.

even despite the alarming likelihood you would be totally clueless how to at all pleasantly seduce her.

That's the most despicable thing anyone has ever said to me. I won't ever forgive you for it, not even on my death bed.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'm making this post on the slight chance that anyone -- male or female -- might still be making an effort -- an open-minded effort -- to understand how deeply my friend felt after what the girl's pulled on him.

My experience is admittedly limited, but most men (and I do indeed mean most) fear being rejected by a woman they are attracted to more than they fear being alone.

If I had a dollar for each time some man I've known has refused to ask out a woman because he couldn't make himself face the acute misery of rejection, I could pay a month's rent. And if I had ten dollars for each time some man I've known has spent his entire single's life asking out only women he wouldn't too terribly mind being rejected by, instead of the women he really wants to ask out, I could pay the following month's rent.

I believe that in all likelihood, rejection is the typical male's most powerfully entrenched sexual fear. Men have now and then sought my advice through-out my adult life, and that's their number one issue, so far as I can recall.

So, perhaps you can partly imagine what it could be like for a man -- especially a relatively inexperienced man -- to encounter, not mere rejection, but rejection pointedly aimed at humiliating him, by a woman he longs will think well of him.

My apologies to anyone who read this and didn't want to hear it.

I think want happened to your friend is awful, but it's not sexual harassment it is emotional bullying, I know girls have done similar things to other girls online pretending to be male and tricking one of their own friends to have intimate conversations with this fictional guy so they can laugh behind her back, and they are meant to be friends. But I thought this was usually a highschool thing. It's sad to know there are adult women who still dedicate their time to emotional bullying.