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Richard Dawkins hasn't read the Quran yet.

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
If it's prejudiced to judge Islam before reading the Quran, why isn't it prejudiced to judge Dawkins (as you have done) without reading his writings? He's written many books on religion. Reading them will help you understand his position better than you would from just reading a 140-character tweet.

If Dawkins is judging the Qur'an without ever reading, it is not prejudging the man to say that his assessment of it is invalid or might be invalid. If someone is going to judge an entire religion just by some people's actions, then he may be mistaken on about it. Saying that is not judging Dawkins at all, but an observation. It would be like judging all Christians by the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.

Dawkins could understand Islam's position better by actually learning about the religion.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
If Dawkins is judging the Qur'an without ever reading, it is not prejudging the man to say that his assessment of it is invalid or might be invalid. If someone is going to judge an entire religion just by some people's actions, then he may be mistaken on about it. Saying that is not judging Dawkins at all, but an observation. It would be like judging all Christians by the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.

Dawkins could understand Islam's position better by actually learning about the religion.

I am not sure we can really get an accurate representation of a religion by the text. If it were there would only be one Christian denomination and only one version of islam. We have to go by what the religions/sects do and say. The major issue being that people can interpret the bible or quran any way they feel necessary which leads to extremists in Christianity and Islam the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church. I dont see how we can stop people from interpreting violence out of those texts so thr extremists will remain justified in any sort of interpretation they feel is necessary. After all the god of the bible and quran isnt exactly an all good being that will never punish anyone with wrath. On the contrary the texts spell out "believe or else" which leads to elitism and dehumanization of non-believers.
 

McBell

Unbound
If Dawkins is judging the Qur'an without ever reading, it is not prejudging the man to say that his assessment of it is invalid or might be invalid. If someone is going to judge an entire religion just by some people's actions, then he may be mistaken on about it. Saying that is not judging Dawkins at all, but an observation. It would be like judging all Christians by the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.

Dawkins could understand Islam's position better by actually learning about the religion.

Except the tweet clearly states he is not judging the koran, he is judging Islam.

The argument against Dawkins seems to be that the actions of Muslims have no bearing on Islam, just the koran does.
 

McBell

Unbound
that's other issue bro

we are discuss his prejudge about Quran in tweets .

it's just like blind one discuss the colors effect or shapes of things !!!


, we are not talking about if he is good writer or NOT to judge his ALL books .

Except that in the presented tweet, Dawkins is not judging the koran, he is judging Islam.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I am not sure we can really get an accurate representation of a religion by the text. If it were there would only be one Christian denomination and only one version of islam. We have to go by what the religions/sects do and say. The major issue being that people can interpret the bible or quran any way they feel necessary which leads to extremists in Christianity and Islam the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church. I dont see how we can stop people from interpreting violence out of those texts so thr extremists will remain justified in any sort of interpretation they feel is necessary. After all the god of the bible and quran isnt exactly an all good being that will never punish anyone with wrath. On the contrary the texts spell out "believe or else" which leads to elitism and dehumanization of non-believers.

Yes, that's true , too. But if I compare the Muslims I see everyday minding their own business to the extremists I see on the news, then I get a very different picture of those who follow the faith. It's the same with Christianity. The Christians I see walking around, in my Bible study, at Church services are much different from those I see on TV and on the News.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Except the tweet clearly states he is not judging the koran, he is judging Islam.

The argument against Dawkins seems to be that the actions of Muslims have no bearing on Islam, just the koran does.

I understand.

But he would still need to understand the faith. Most of the Muslims I know are just ordinary people who would never dream of blowing up people. I think one aspect of learning about a faith is by reading their sacred texts- yet not the only way, by any means.

If he'd have said "Islam extremists (or any extremists) are evil" then we wouldn't even be having this discussion at all. :)
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
we are discuss his prejudge about Quran in tweets .
Hang on a little bit, perhaps he was prejudiced but not against Quran. He made statements about Islam, not the Quran. He called Islam evil, not the Quran. He didn't say Quran was evil.

Put it this way, do you consider Christianity to be wrong? Or Buddhism? If you do, did you read all of the Bible? Did you read all the Buddhist books? If you didn't, then you're prejudging them in the same way as you say Dawkins is doing against Islam.

Let's go through this again:

Dawkins talked about Islam, not the Quran.
Dawkins have never read the whole Quran (but I assume he's read parts of it).

You probably have opinions about non-Islam religions.
You haven't read all books there is about each and every religion in the world, but you've probably read parts of many of them.

So in the same manner you can make a "prejudgment" regarding all other religions, or any other religion, Dawkins can make his "prejudgment" regarding all or any other religion, based on the same limited knowledge about the books.

Let's take it from yet another slightly different angle.

Religion is not the same as the religious books. A religious book can say something, but the religion might be different. Just consider that there are two or three different Islamic groups. Shi'ite and Sunni are two religions, even though there also in a sense the same, yet different. But they have the same holy book. Christianity is even worse. There are some 30,000 different denominations. Everyone interpreting their holy book a little different than the other. So, the holy book doesn't necessarily equate religion. Religion can be different than the holy book. So to express an opinion about religion, not the holy book, doesn't have to be based on what the holy book says since the religion is different that the holy book.

I know. I write very convoluted. But I hope you understand the point that Dawkins criticizing a religion is not the same as him criticizing a holy book.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
If Dawkins is judging the Qur'an without ever reading,
He didn't judge the Qur'an (the holy book).

He judged Islam (the religion).

it is not prejudging the man to say that his assessment of it is invalid or might be invalid. If someone is going to judge an entire religion just by some people's actions, then he may be mistaken on about it. Saying that is not judging Dawkins at all, but an observation. It would be like judging all Christians by the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.
Nope.

What he was doing was judging Westboro Baptist Church without reading the books written by their leader.

It would be like judging Christianity based on what Christians say and do without reading the Bible.

Dawkins could understand Islam's position better by actually learning about the religion.
He didn't say he didn't know about the religion, and I suspect he has read some parts of the Qur'an, just not the whole thing.

Let's say he did read the whole Qur'an and then called Islam evil. Would he now be right because he had read it? I don't think he would be right or wrong based on that criteria. Obviously he would understand Islam better by reading the Qur'an, but it wouldn't change what he knows about how the religion is affecting politics, culture, and society.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Political Correctness is a new universal ethos and Dawkins is guilty...like most anybody who discusses religions and religious history without being all smiles and ignoring much insanity.

Look at it plainly, which religious group has the most actions or systems in place which we would consider bad, which evil is just a emphasized synonym of.....these actions/systems of bad=force of evil.


You would have to read the Qur'an and hadith as well as take note of most common interpretation differences to understand the religion, philosophy, spirituality, etc. but not to see which group is the greatest force of evil in the world...that's news and current events.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
He didn't judge the Qur'an (the holy book).

He judged Islam (the religion).


Nope.

What he was doing was judging Westboro Baptist Church without reading the books written by their leader.

It would be like judging Christianity based on what Christians say and do without reading the Bible.


He didn't say he didn't know about the religion, and I suspect he has read some parts of the Qur'an, just not the whole thing.

Let's say he did read the whole Qur'an and then called Islam evil. Would he now be right because he had read it? I don't think he would be right or wrong based on that criteria. Obviously he would understand Islam better by reading the Qur'an, but it wouldn't change what he knows about how the religion is affecting politics, culture, and society.

Actually, reading the entire Qur'an wouldn't broaden his insight into the faith very much, that I agree with. But, at the same time, and I am guilty of it, too, is that we are judging people of various groups not by people we actually know, but by what we hear on the news. Not all Muslims are terrorists or extremists. While I don't judge religions, I might judge teens, for example, by the examples I see on various news programs, when the teens I meet that are my daughter's friends are not even remotely like the ones I see on those shows.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Political Correctness is a new universal ethos and Dawkins is guilty...like most anybody who discusses religions and religious history without being all smiles and ignoring much insanity.

Look at it plainly, which religious group has the most actions or systems in place which we would consider bad, which evil is just a emphasized synonym of.....these actions/systems of bad=force of evil.


You would have to read the Qur'an and hadith as well as take note of most common interpretation differences to understand the religion, philosophy, spirituality, etc. but not to see which group is the greatest force of evil in the world...that's news and current events.

No one doubts that there are terrorists, what we are trying to say is that not everyone who follows that faith is a terrorist.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
No one doubts that there are terrorists, what we are trying to say is that not everyone who follows that faith is a terrorist.

Right but who does see it like that? Maybe other extremists

We do know world wide there is not any close second for "force of evil", but this still doesn't damn all good Muslims
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Squeezed to death

Half a million children have died in Iraq since UN sanctions were imposed - most enthusiastically by Britain and the US. Three UN officials have resigned in despair. Meanwhile, bombing of Iraq continues almost daily. John Pilger investigates.

Squeezed to death | From the Guardian | theguardian.com

Does the UN follow the verses of the quran.
Date of the article was Saturday 4 March 2000... Surely you can do better, FearGod?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Actually, reading the entire Qur'an wouldn't broaden his insight into the faith very much, that I agree with. But, at the same time, and I am guilty of it, too, is that we are judging people of various groups not by people we actually know, but by what we hear on the news. Not all Muslims are terrorists or extremists. While I don't judge religions, I might judge teens, for example, by the examples I see on various news programs, when the teens I meet that are my daughter's friends are not even remotely like the ones I see on those shows.
I totally agree with you there.

Here's the thing though, we don't know what Dawkins based his "Islam is evil" phrase on. Perhaps it's based on the news that women are suppressed and education is very poor in most Islamic countries? I don't know why he said what he said, so if we say that he did it because of some extremists, it would be our assumption only. We wouldn't know what he based his comment on unless we read more about his reasoning. We are "pre-judging" him without reading his books. Perhaps he has good reasons. Perhaps he doesn't. Do we know?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Right but who does see it like that? Maybe other extremists

We do know world wide there is not any close second for "force of evil", but this still doesn't damn all good Muslims

I suspect Dawkins view on Islam is based on the educational system they have (where some countries only allow teaching from the Qur'an and nothing else, or at least so I heard) and treatment of women (they're not considered on the same level legally in some countries).

I'm sure there are good things too, but perhaps these are the bad things Dawkins based his views on?

Or maybe it was on civil rights, justice system, and so on. Not on terrorists in particular. :shrug:
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
What one religious culture or subculture would you say is the greatest source of bad, harm, evil, oppression, fear, etc. in the world today as it stands?

This isn't a question of divine truths and inspiration, but actions and systems in place that causes what is universally seen as bad.

I want to see which one you personally choose.

My Muslim friend down the road didn't even hesitate when I asked him... It was a regretfully spoken "Islam"
Squeezed to death

Half a million children have died in Iraq since UN sanctions were imposed - most enthusiastically by Britain and the US. Three UN officials have resigned in despair. Meanwhile, bombing of Iraq continues almost daily. John Pilger investigates.

Squeezed to death | From the Guardian | theguardian.com

Does the UN follow the verses of the quran.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
I suspect Dawkins view on Islam is based on the educational system they have (where some countries only allow teaching from the Qur'an and nothing else, or at least so I heard) and treatment of women (they're not considered on the same level legally in some countries).

I'm sure there are good things too, but perhaps these are the bad things Dawkins based his views on?

Or maybe it was on civil rights, justice system, and so on. Not on terrorists in particular. :shrug:

Dawkins is very big on the "fruits" of religions in particular and in general. Are they a vehicle for personal and world transformation towards the better? To what degree? How can we get rid of the bad parts?

That's what I gather from his books and talks.
 
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