Richard Dawkins hasn't read the Quran yet.

[FearGod]

Date of the article was Saturday 4 March 2000... Surely you can do better, FearGod?

What difference it makes ?
Are the UN ex-muslims now. :sarcastic

 

[Ouroboros]

Dawkins is very big on the "fruits" of religions in particular and in general. Are they a vehicle for personal and world transformation towards the better? To what degree? How can we get rid of the bad parts?

That's what I gather from his books and talks.

Yup. That's right.

He's not judging Islam based on the intentions in the Qur'an, but from the actions of those who claim they believe in the Qur'an. Actions speaks louder than the words.

 

[YmirGF]

Yup. That's right.

He's not judging Islam based on the intentions in the Qur'an, but from the actions of those who claim they believe in the Qur'an. Actions speaks louder than the words.

And that is an exceptionally good point. It's the real "fine print" as it were. It doesn't really matter what a given book says - it's how people who follow that book are prone to act - often while citing that very book to support their atrocities...

 

[Gui10]

For me personally, it takes very few demonstrations to consider a belief bogus... The few insane qu'ran verses I know like 4:89 and the simple concept of miracles, heaven and hell, are enough for me to dismiss the religion as a whole, simply from it's own falsehood.

 

[Mycroft]

It says in the Qur'an Muhammad split the moon in two.

*looks up at the moon*.

Now I'm not expert on moons, don't get me wrong. But that up there sure seems like a whole moon to me.

 

[metis]

It says in the Qur'an Muhammad split the moon in two.

*looks up at the moon*.

Now I'm not expert on moons, don't get me wrong. But that up there sure seems like a whole moon to me.

Maybe it was in reference to someone's butt?

 

[Looncall]

Yes, that's true , too. But if I compare the Muslims I see everyday minding their own business to the extremists I see on the news, then I get a very different picture of those who follow the faith. It's the same with Christianity. The Christians I see walking around, in my Bible study, at Church services are much different from those I see on TV and on the News.

Sure, that makes sense.

However, when we see what goes on in muslim-majority societies (oppression of women, mobs attacking people for blasphemy or freaking out over a few cartoons, corruption by wholesale, etc), surely that is reflective of the religion. When thousands run into the streets together to do murder, it's hard to say that they are just a few extremists. If the outcomes were more mixed, one might think otherwise, but they aren't.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

what are you talking about ?

without reading the writings of Dawkins ?!!!!

I guess this thread talking about his post in twitter only , not all what his writes

I guess Dawkins is talking about the physical impact and observable results of Islam, rather than each page of the Quran itself.



As I said earlier, I think he should read the Quran if he's going to debate Muslims, but it's certainly not neccessary to read the entire Quran before being able to pass comment on the effects of the associated religions to some degree.

 

[Ouroboros]

Maybe it was in reference to someone's butt?

That would explain the expression mooning. :areyoucra

 

[Sees]

FearGod didn't get to address this yet, but does anybody else, from any religion or lack of, have an answer to this other than Islam?

I'm curious how many feel religious cultures must get a pass, and therefore can't allow a choice to be said or typed in their name.

Maybe just a top 2 in the spirit of love and not singling out a "bad guy" to point at?

What one religious culture or subculture would you say is the greatest source of bad, harm, evil, oppression, fear, etc. in the world today as it stands?

This isn't a question of divine truths and inspiration, but actions and systems in place that causes what is universally seen as bad.

I want to see which one you personally choose.

My Muslim friend down the road didn't even hesitate when I asked him... It was a regretfully spoken "Islam"

 

[Sha'irullah]

Religions can easily be judged by the actions of their adherents and the piousness of their behavior. Radical Muslims almost always used verses from the Qur'an to justify their behavior and considering that I know quite a bit about the Qur'an as many people on this forum do it is easily understandable that Islam can be dismissed by the deeds of Muslims alone.
Divine religions should have divine effects as expected from their claims. Simple observation can go a long ways when it comes to finding truth. Now that I think of it, without observation science would be screwed

 

[Godobeyer]

Except that in the presented tweet, Dawkins is not judging the koran, he is judging Islam.

Islam , or Quran are almost the same .

I am by prejudge Quran because he did not read it .

 

[FearGod]

What one religious culture or subculture would you say is the greatest source of bad, harm, evil, oppression, fear, etc. in the world today as it stands?

This isn't a question of divine truths and inspiration, but actions and systems in place that causes what is universally seen as bad.

I want to see which one you personally choose.

My Muslim friend down the road didn't even hesitate when I asked him... It was a regretfully spoken "Islam"

First we should know that Islam (as way of life) isn't applied in any Muslim country except in Iran to some degree.

The quran isn't for war but for guidance and picking one verse out of its context is just a silly attempt to distort the actual meaning of it.

Many people had read the quran with the intention to understand it and found it to be a sort of guidance.

We may realize the effect of Islam in between the years 630-1400.
Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Back to the years of Arabs before Islam (prior to Mohammed's revelation)
The Dark Period Of Jahiliyya

I believe it is the media that portrait Islam as an evil.

[youtube]-_ihf_oPvlg[/youtube]
An Atheist defending Quran and Islam !!

[youtube]zzPXwt1Tu0g[/youtube]
They told me Islam from the devil

 

[Looncall]

First we should know that Islam (as way of life) isn't applied in any Muslim country except in Iran to some degree.

The quran isn't for war but for guidance and picking one verse out of its context is just a silly attempt to distort the actual meaning of it.

Many people had read the quran with the intention to understand it and found it to be a sort of guidance.

We may realize the effect of Islam in between the years 630-1400.
Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Back to the years of Arabs before Islam (prior to Mohammed's revelation)
The Dark Period Of Jahiliyya

I believe it is the media that portrait Islam as an evil.

[youtube]-_ihf_oPvlg[/youtube]
An Atheist defending Quran and Islam !!

[youtube]zzPXwt1Tu0g[/youtube]
They told me Islam from the devil

No True Scotsman, eh?

So you claim that countries that are inhabited almost exclusively by muslims should not be considered islamic? What guff!

 

[Caladan]

I believe I learned another important lesson about hypocrisy in this thread. The same members who blame Dawkins for prejudging Islam by not reading the Qur'an are the same members who quote mine the Jewish Talmud every time a debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict arises. While they obviously have not set and read the Talmud, nor does copy pasting passages from anti-Jewish websites have anything to do with debating politics.

As for Dawkins. As long as he is debating the actions and words of Muslims, actions and words which Muslims themselves claim to derive from Islam he has every right to do it.
As for the scholarly quality of Dawkins arguments which may be related to the Qur'an that is another issue. Personally, as I stated before it is not that common to even debate with Muslims who are well familiar with the Qur'an.
I interact with Muslims on daily basis, and while it is hard not sounding boastful saying this, while they may know the mundane parts of their religion better, there is no doubt that I know the scriptures and the history of their religion better than they do.
So, common Muslims in general are not that much of a greater authority about the Qur'an than Dawkins, and yet they all passionately debate Islam and current affairs.

 

[FearGod]

No True Scotsman, eh?

So you claim that countries that are inhabited almost exclusively by muslims should not be considered islamic? What guff!

No, it is only Islamic by name.

If Islam will return then you won't see a prostitute selling her body to feed herself and her family, you won't see people dying of hunger while others put their excess foods in the garbage.

It is the message of unity, love and peace for one united world, no borders and no part should be regarded to be better than the other.

[youtube]hu5py5rUCQk[/youtube]
Hadith: Return of the Khilafah - YouTube

[youtube]i3Xc1MfX9X8[/youtube]
The Prophet Muhammad's Last Sermon - YouTube

 

[Ouroboros]

Islam , or Quran are almost the same .

No. It isn't.

Islam is a religion.

Qur'an is a book.

Those are completely two different things.

I am by prejudge Quran because he did not read it .

? That sentence doesn't make sense.

If you make that poor comparison, then you are "prejudging" Dawkins with not reading his books. It has to go both ways. You can't eat the cake and have it too.

 

[Looncall]

No, it is only Islamic by name.

If Islam will return then you won't see a prostitute selling her body to feed herself and her family, you won't see people dying of hunger while others put their excess foods in the garbage.

It is the message of unity, love and peace for one united world, no borders and no part should be regarded to be better than the other.

[youtube]hu5py5rUCQk[/youtube]
Hadith: Return of the Khilafah - YouTube

[youtube]i3Xc1MfX9X8[/youtube]
The Prophet Muhammad's Last Sermon - YouTube

So why do we not see anything like this in any muslim-majority society?

I don't think it is possible to talk one's way out of this objection. If islam is any good, it should have its claimed beneficial effects on the behaviour of its followers.

 

[Ouroboros]

No True Scotsman, eh?

So you claim that countries that are inhabited almost exclusively by muslims should not be considered islamic? What guff!

Then it would follow that it would be a good thing to point out the evil things in the false Islamic countries. So if someone would say that Islam is evil and have those false Islamic countries in mind, the true Muslims should join forces and make sure the false Muslims are corrected (without violence of course and only using methods of reasoning). Which means, it's not bad after all that Dawkins call Islam evil. It will make the true believers correct the false ones and get their religion on track on goodness. So why the sour face then?

 

[FearGod]

So why do we not see anything like this in any muslim-majority society?

I don't think it is possible to talk one's way out of this objection. If islam is any good, it should have its claimed beneficial effects on the behaviour of its followers.

Muslims are oppressed by their leaders as the prophet prophesied that this stage has to come because it is planned already by God.

The final stage is the khilaphah and the end of time.

The prophet gave some signs for the approaching of the hour such as the siege on Iraq then Syria and Egypt.

Other signs mentioned was the taken over Jerusalem by the Jews and that God promised that they'll be stronger for a time assigned by him.

Of course Islam won't have any significant effect since God has planned for such thing to happen.

For example one of the signs is that wines (intoxicants, alcohol) will be drunk in great quantities, which means that Islam is weak at those times.

Other signs given by the prophet, Illegal sexual intercourse will become widespread, gay marriage, tall buildings, horses will not be used in wars .....etc