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Richard Dawkins Reads His Hate Mail

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Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
******* great.

A cut and paste job with no commentary. I'll take it this the best we'll get from you.

So here goes:
1) Dawkins sees religion as subverting science, fostering fanaticism, encouraging bigotry against homosexuals, and influencing society in other negative ways.

This is not an attack on religion. It's a fact.
Subverting science: legal challenges by the Discovery Institute along with other organizations attempting to remove the standards of science from educational institutions and replacing them with non-scientific standards.
Fostering fanaticism: One only need to go to New York City to see that. Or check out the children burned, doused in acid, attacked with machetes, etc. for allegedly being witches. There is more than enough fanaticism to be drawn from religious organizations to prove this point of fact.
Encouraging bigotry against homosexuals: Last I checked it was every moderate to liberal individual pointing out the primary religious opposition to equal rights for homosexuals. The religious for putting homosexuals to death in certain parts of the world. And it's only the religious organizations pushing these agendas.
Influencing society in other negative ways: How many religious organizations from Scientology, all those involved in the practices above, faith healers, etc. to point out that those who refuse to use any reason in place of blind faith to make people realize that there are many religious organizations causing social harm.

2) He equates the religious teaching of children by parents and teachers in faith schools to a form of mental abuse.

Indeed he does. In specific reference to the Catholic faith schools, telling children they are going to burn in hell, the physical and mental abuse that occurred in reality at many of these institutions, etc.

3) Dawkins considers the labels "Muslim child" or a "Catholic child" equally misapplied as the descriptions "Marxist child" or a "Tory child", as he wonders how a young child can be considered developed enough to have such independent views on the cosmos and humanity's place within it.

True. How can a child who has not had the experience of the various worldviews considered to be making their own choice to be a Muslim, Christian, atheist, etc. This is not an attack on anything.

4) The book concludes with the question whether religion, despite its alleged problems, fills a "much needed gap", giving consolation and inspiration to people who need it. According to Dawkins, these needs are much better filled by non-religious means such as philosophy and science. He suggests that an atheistic worldview is life-affirming in a way that religion, with its unsatisfying "answers" to life's mysteries, could never be. An appendix gives addresses for those "needing support in escaping religion".

Oh how horrible. Such a mean spirited attack against religion! Different ways of understanding the world! Uncalled for, Mr. Dawkins.

Seriously.

That was horrible.

You dont think any of that is divisive, judgemental or generalising...subjective?

Remarkable...

And btw as for getting the best out of me I don't make much of an effort with people who argue for the sake of arguing...and moreover are rude...point score elsewhere...I am not interested.

I think Dawkins is clearly prejudiced against religion in general and encourages others to turn from it.

Perhaps you agree with him...I really do not give a **** but only a fool would try to argue he does not unbiasedly attack religion in his books...which all I am saying is divsive and counterproductive and impractical as ultimately science can never answer all questions because of the subjectivity of the observer.

He sounds like some Stalinist sometimes...in his books and lectures.

Anyway...we will dally again I am sure...but next time I wont let you off without a mauling ;)
 
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gnomon

Well-Known Member
You dont think any of that is divisive?

Remarkable...

And btw as for getting the best out of me I don't make much of an effort with people who argue for the sake of arguing...and moreover are rude...point score elsewhere...I am not interested.

I think Dawkins is clearly prejudiced against religion in general and encourages others to turn from it.

Perhaps you agree with him...I really do not give a **** but only a fool would try to argue he does not unbiasedly attack religion in his books...which all I am saying is divsive and counterproductive and impractical as ultimately science can never answer all questions because of the subjectivity of the observer.

He sounds like some Stalinist sometimes...in his books and lectures.

Anyway...we will dally again I am sure...but next time I wont let you off without a mauling ;)

In other words, you claim to have read his books but you cannot give a specific line of reasoning.

That's the point.

If you think you can maul then please do. That's what I like on these forums. People who can assert something and actually back it up.

Here's a simple one. How is Dawkins' statement that labeling a child with religion an attack? The evidence shows that the majority of people will grow up with the same cultural beliefs, or religious beliefs, as their parents and peers. In a society in which a wider range of beliefs are accepted and tolerated the children are more likely to identify with a belief outside of those beliefs of their parents.

How is that an attack on religion?
 
You dont think any of that is divisive, judgemental or generalising...subjective?

Remarkable...

And btw as for getting the best out of me I don't make much of an effort with people who argue for the sake of arguing...and moreover are rude...point score elsewhere...I am not interested.

I think Dawkins is clearly prejudiced against religion in general and encourages others to turn from it.

Perhaps you agree with him...I really do not give a **** but only a fool would try to argue he does not unbiasedly attack religion in his books...which all I am saying is divsive and counterproductive and impractical as ultimately science can never answer all questions because of the subjectivity of the observer.

He sounds like some Stalinist sometimes...in his books and lectures.

Anyway...we will dally again I am sure...but next time I wont let you off without a mauling ;)

Does the phrase all mouth and no trousers mean anything to you?
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
In other words, you claim to have read his books but you cannot give a specific line of reasoning.

I don't claim to have a photgraphic memory you mean...no sorry I don't. :rolleyes:

TRY reading his books for yourself with an objective open unprejudiced mind.

Particularly the ones I mention.


If you think you can maul then please do. That's what I like on these forums. People who can assert something and actually back it up.

Oh you don't know me yet...but you will...you will.

Here's a simple one. How is Dawkins' statement that labeling a child with religion an attack? The evidence shows that the majority of people will grow up with the same cultural beliefs, or religious beliefs, as their parents and peers. In a society in which a wider range of beliefs are accepted and tolerated the children are more likely to identify with a belief outside of those beliefs of their parents.

Simple for you because it isnt a direct attack...how about saying children that are raised under a religious belief system is a form of mental abuse?
Hmmm..pray tell?

How is that an attack on religion?

It's more insidious perhaps than the one I mention above but all part of the general strategy..to denigrate.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I don't claim to have a photgraphic memory you mean...no sorry I don't. :rolleyes:

I never said that.

Oh you don't know me yet...but you will...you will.

Are you resorting to threats?

Simple for you because it isnt a direct attack...how about saying children that are raised under a religious belief system is a form of mental abuse?
Hmmm..pray tell?



It's more insidious perhaps than the one I mention above but all part of the general strategy..to denigrate.

Direct attack or general attack, who cares. Don't deflect the question to something else.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
How else am I to pull out sentences for you?

Synopsis no good then?



Grow up...if you call that a threat then I assume you are in a state of constant terror.



You are boring me now...time for COD4.

That's fine.

Your hostility over being asked questions is interesting.

But anytime you'd like to go over the subject I'd be interested. Especially in your earlier assertion in the thread over Dawkins' ignorance of theology. The relevant question along those lines being what the relevance of theology to debates over the role of religion in society actually is.
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
That's fine.

Your hostility over being asked questions is interesting.

Is it?

But anytime you'd like to go over the subject I'd be interested. Especially in your earlier assertion in the thread over Dawkins' ignorance of theology. The relevant question along those lines being what the relevance of theology to debates over the role of religion in society actually is.

Dawkins makes very generalistic assumptions even as going so far to generalise all religions and tar them all with the same brush...condemning them all..clearly he understand nothing of comparative theology or chooses to ignore the fact that the vastly differing theologies of all these beliefs have different implications for those that believe in them, with their world views, customs and culture...which are extremely varied, faith to faith, sect to sect, person to person.
He forgets his own subjectivity...he is a bigot.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think your view has some merit. I didn't realize that some were teaching that science is manipulated by Satan. Though, I guess, it is really the scientists whom they claim are under demonic control. I wonder how many people hold such views? I did learn from one Christian forum that some people also believe that demons are in charge of various cities across the United States. This whole thing sounds like so much crazy talk.
Myself, I my believes were borderline Southern Baptist, and while I was home schooled my science books also mentioned it. In youth group meetings pamphlets about how Satan was manipulating science to show that we had evolved, but these science finds show that Creationism is true. I can't say for sure how many exactly, but for every person that says evolution is "just a theory" there is a pastor or pamphlet that has convinced them of that. Usually this stems from a complete misunderstanding of the scientific method, and having the thought that since it is a theory, it has been shown to probably not conclusive. Now since that definition of theory is close to what is at least what some high school text books have, it's easy to think it hasn't been proven. And then there is the way the devil controls it, where I went taught he worked his evil at the "top ranks" in the science community, and these god hating atheist (and to an ultra conservative atheism can literally mean "god hater") work to pressure all of the science community to agree with evolution, global warming, and so on. On a side note, to them ID really isn't Creationism repackaged and relabeled. To them, it's a theory that states given the randomness and high probabilities of life appearing (not necessarily created as-is or evolved) on earth might have been the work of a God.

Don't you think that scientists like Dawkins are being drawn into the debate by the Creationist attack on evolution? American astrophysicist Neil deGrass Tyson goes after them because of their rejection of his science. Don't you think they will see any teaching that contradicts Genesis as demon inspired no matter how polite the discussion is? When they try to shut down teaching that doesn't support their holy scripture, and the matter is taken to court, there is no option but to point out that their beliefs are faith based and not supported by science.
It's mostly to do with every last bit of anything negative about God is used to reaffirm there believes. It should also be noted it isn't with the intent to control or brain wash, but a true believe that Satan is deceiving the world. I can't say for sure as Richard Dawkins was not a household name when I last went to church, but I am certain that every time he calls religion evil, there are people who are interpreting this as a prominent and well respected scientist who is most certainly under the influence of Satan. From there perspective such science is blatantly unholy.
If religion where to be completely left out of science, I strongly believe it would create a warmer and more welcoming environment to those who are curious, who are in a public school that teaches about it, or so on, will be more likely to listen because the face of someone who is possessed by the devil won't be in their minds.
I also think that ultimately to educate people about evolution, rather than mock them people need to take a step back to the scientific method and explaining it in detail because alot of it does stem from a poor understanding of it. And I'm sure most people will agree that you do have to have an understanding of how a hypothesis becomes theory, and then becomes law and all the inbetweens, and thorough explanation of how we have a fossil script of how life evolved, and we have modern evidence of evolution, such as bacteria developing an immunity to antibiotics. It's a very small example and doesn't explain how life evolved from a single source, but it does show the most basic function of how evolution works.
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
No they havent, certainly not Darwin he was a devout christian.
Darwin may have been a devout Christian prior to his voyage on the Beagle but by the end of the voyage he was critical of the historical accuracy of the Bible and no longer saw his version of Christianity as infallible. There's a certain irony in the contemporary ID/creationism controversy and Darwin- he was a theist when he wrote On the Origin of Species but by 1879 he was comfortable identifying as an agnostic.
Read the God Delusion yourself...the title kind of speaks for itself.

Or perhaps the Blind Watchmaker...

Then get back to me.
While I'm ambivalent about the title The God Delusion I can't imagine how The Blind Watchmaker is incendiary whatsoever. It's simply a play on Paley's inane watchmaker analogy, an analogy made obsolete by Darwin. Dawkins' title simply observes that if we are to compare natural selection to human design then the Designer must be blind or incompetent. Nothing insulting about valid conclusions.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Dawkins makes very generalistic assumptions even as going so far to generalise all religions and tar them all with the same brush...condemning them all..clearly he understand nothing of comparative theology or chooses to ignore the fact that the vastly differing theologies of all these beliefs have different implications for those that believe in them, with their world views, customs and culture...which are extremely varied, faith to faith, sect to sect, person to person.
He forgets his own subjectivity...he is a bigot.
Hmm.

I touch on this issue in this thread here - maybe you'd be interested in giving your thoughts: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/106223-courtiers-reply.html
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
I have read The Blind Watchmaker several times. There's nothing even remotely insulting or condescending in it (I'm assuming this is why you're critical of the book). Am I to gather by your post you haven't read it?

Gather what you want...I have no ego to upset so use italics all you like LOL

Pfft...

If you had read the Blind Watchmaker you would have read that he alludes to religion frequently and what he alludes is rarely polite or constructive...always critical.

But if you disagree fine..couldnt give a ****.

If you don't think Dawkins has a problem with religion then FINE...

Enjoy.
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
Gather what you want...I have no ego to upset so use italics all you like LOL

Pfft...

If you had read the Blind Watchmaker you would have read that he alludes to religion frequently and what he alludes is rarely polite or constructive...always critical.

But if you disagree fine..couldnt give a ****.

If you don't think Dawkins has a problem with religion then FINE...

Enjoy.
Good post. I look forward to more of your well argued elucidating posts.
 
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