Right move?

[Quetzal]

It seems that Trump is damned if he does and damned if he don't. If he did nothing, he's a bad guy. If he does what the other side says he should, he's still a bad guy because he may not have or probably didn't mean it. I could never be a politician.

You have to understand why. He created his own mess. He does not deserve a pat on the head for fixing something he broke. This isn't a simple oopsie. This was a deliberate, premeditated attempt to deter others at the expense of children. He deserves nothing.

 

[Shad]

As I predicted in another thread, the President has signed an order stopping family separation of illegal immigrants. To some ,Trump can do no wrong. To others, he can do no right. This, I think is the right thing to do.

In reversal, Trump signs order stopping family separation

He always had the option to use the bond system, release to family that have legal status, NGO sponsor programs or expedient deportation (no court hearing). His EO does not change that it is a legal option. It is facade EO merely created for optics in order to cover for him backing down of his own policy. More so if he does not stop charging illegal immigrants with criminal charges by law children will still be separated anyways.

 

[Shad]

It is the first time in my recollection that Trump has ever backed down. It is the first time that Republicans (at least some of them) stood up to Him and His policies.

Travel ban. He backed down in August/September of last year after 3 major attempts. He just didn't have a press release about it.

 

[fantome profane]

Travel ban. He backed down in August/September of last year after 3 major attempts. He just didn't have a press release about it.

Yes, but that was a little bit different. The courts forced his to rework that. Here he has backed down due to political pressure. The courts have not ruled on this. (yet)

 

[fantome profane]

You have to understand why. He created his own mess. He does not deserve a pat on the head for fixing something he broke. This isn't a simple oopsie. This was a deliberate, premeditated attempt to deter others at the expense of children. He deserves nothing.

The other reason he does not deserve credit for fixing this is because this is not fixed.

 

[metis]

Um... that's what politicians do.

Yes, but some more than others. I've never been a fan of "one size fits all", not only in this arena but most others as well. Some are willing to take the heat of not being p.c., and then some aren't. For examples, Bill Clinton and John McCain often said and did things that were not that popular within their parties.

 

[jonathan180iq]

As I predicted in another thread, the President has signed an order stopping family separation of illegal immigrants. To some ,Trump can do no wrong. To others, he can do no right. This, I think is the right thing to do.

In reversal, Trump signs order stopping family separation

Of course it's the right short term move. That's a no-brainer.
But we also have to recognize that it's a move that was created because of the change in policy enforcement from what was essentially standard practice after passing in 2002 to this new "zero-tolerance" interpretation, which created the situation where previously accompanied minors were then suddenly unaccompanied because of a new desire to directly prosecute illegal entry.

We can't blame the administration for trying something new using existing frame works. They're well within their right to do so. But we can certainly blame them for not recognizing the mistake they were making in the first place, not owning that mistake, not correcting it immediately, and then not being competent enough to come up with a press release explaining and packaging the whole thing in a much more palatable way, to both their supporters and the opposing party.

They seem to have no political savvy whatsoever. It's mind-blowing.

For Reference:

• H.R.5005 - 107th Congress (2001-2002): Homeland Security Act of 2002
• https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/defau..._unaccompanied_alien_childrens_services_0.pdf
• Myth vs. Fact: DHS Zero-Tolerance Policy
  (FACT #3)

 

[Shad]

which created the situation where previously accompanied minors were then suddenly unaccompanied because of a new desire to directly prosecute illegal entry.

Nope. Flores vs Lynch

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/15-56434.pdf

 

[metis]

Of course it's the right short term move. That's a no-brainer.
But we also have to recognize that it's a move that was created because of the change in policy enforcement from what was essentially standard practice after passing in 2002 to this new "zero-tolerance" interpretation, which created the situation where previously accompanied minors were then suddenly unaccompanied because of a new desire to directly prosecute illegal entry.

We can't blame the administration for trying something new using existing frame works. They're well within their right to do so. But we can certainly blame them for not recognizing the mistake they were making in the first place, not owning that mistake, not correcting it immediately, and then not being competent enough to come up with a press release explaining and packaging the whole thing in a much more palatable way, to both their supporters and the opposing party.

They seem to have no political savvy whatsoever. It's mind-blowing.

For Reference:

• H.R.5005 - 107th Congress (2001-2002): Homeland Security Act of 2002
• https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/defau..._unaccompanied_alien_childrens_services_0.pdf
• Myth vs. Fact: DHS Zero-Tolerance Policy
  (FACT #3)

But is it just a matter of political ineptness? Many see that there's also is a moral issue involved as well, namely is it right and proper to take children away from the parents while their parents' case is pending?

 

[metis]

Nope. Flores vs Lynch

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/15-56434.pdf

Which the administration is now appealing, plus there's some discussion about congress maybe passing a new law to alter the law that led to that decision, according to the news this morning.

Also, they're bringing in judges from the military to try and process these cases faster.

 

[idav]

Nope. Flores vs Lynch

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/15-56434.pdf

Criminals lose their kids but it’s Trumps administrations retarded policies choosing to criminalize someone seeking asylum. His zero tolerance policy caused it which he still refuses to reverse and refuses to give human beings the due process they deserve. Not surprising considering Trump believes in racial profiling and believes migrants are automatically rapists and murderers. Trumps xenophobic policies caused this plain and simple.

 

[1137]

Why are you blaming the left for Trump's lack of basic common sense?

Because they've screamed and cried for weeks to make this happen! Trump's policy was not to sent children to prison but to hopefully find relatives or foster placement for them to go to . The left threw their average tantrum begging the president to keep children with their parents so Trump agreed to the jailing of kids with their parents (which Obama was sued for).

 

[LuisDantas]

Because they've screamed and cried for weeks to make this happen! Trump's policy was not to sent children to prison but to hopefully find relatives or foster placement for them to go to . The left threw their average tantrum begging the president to keep children with their parents so Trump agreed to the jailing of kids with their parents (which Obama was sued for).

I hope that you have some very convincing support texts to back up these claims. Otherwise, I will be left to admire your chutzpah and nothing else.

 

[metis]

Because they've screamed and cried for weeks to make this happen! Trump's policy was not to sent children to prison but to hopefully find relatives or foster placement for them to go to . The left threw their average tantrum begging the president to keep children with their parents so Trump agreed to the jailing of kids with their parents (which Obama was sued for).

The above simply is not true because it was Kelly and Sessions who demanded and got the "zero-tolerance policy" by convincing Trump that this would deter immigrants. During the Bush and Obama administrations, parents and their children were kept together.

With the zero-tolerance policy being enforced, it overloaded the system that did not have enough judges or time or places of detention, so they took the kids and put them into basically internment camps. Then, to try and deter criticism, they don't allow reporters or even congressmen/women in and only allowing some of their own pictures to be released. Even today we don't know where all the facilities are for the young children because they won't say.

If what this administration is doing is so ethical, why all the secrecy? Why the constant barrage of lies and contradictions? When are even U.S. senators are not allowed into these facilities-- doesn't that tell you something? What if your children were removed from you and you don't even know if you'll ever see them again, which is a realistic worry.

 

[Shad]

Criminals lose their kids but it’s Trumps administrations retarded policies choosing to criminalize someone seeking asylum.

It's calculated.

 

[1137]

I hope that you have some very convincing support texts to back up these claims. Otherwise, I will be left to admire your chutzpah and nothing else.

You're really going to pretend there hasn't been a massive outrage about separating kids from parents during illegal immigration? You guys on the left really couldn't be slightly bothered by reality can you haha.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Which the administration is now appealing, plus there's some discussion about congress maybe passing a new law to alter the law that led to that decision, according to the news this morning.

Also, they're bringing in judges from the military to try and process these cases faster.

Why are they appealing this decision, which seems to defend their practice?

 

[Shad]

Which the administration is now appealing, plus there's some discussion about congress maybe passing a new law to alter the law that led to that decision, according to the news this morning.

There was a legal battle over this for years but accelerated last year. There are about a dozen cases in 2017 alone.

A new Bill or the one the GOP put forward a few days ago?

Also, they're bringing in judges from the military to try and process these cases faster.

While helpful I do not like the idea of the military being involved in the court process.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Because they've screamed and cried for weeks to make this happen! Trump's policy was not to sent children to prison but to hopefully find relatives or foster placement for them to go to . The left threw their average tantrum begging the president to keep children with their parents so Trump agreed to the jailing of kids with their parents (which Obama was sued for).

Um... correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole reason for the outrage that kids were being separated from their parents and held separately?

 

[Shad]

Food for thought.

Trump claims his policy is legal thus law. He overrides the law with the EO which is illegal. If Trump claims his EO is legal then his policy wasn't. No matter what he does now he messed up.

This is what happens when a policy is crafted by a lawyer and only signed off by Trump. Trump has no idea what he is talking about.