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RNA Editing of Octopus Linked to Alien Life!

Are you convinced panspermia is a proven theory?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • No

    Votes: 21 95.5%

  • Total voters
    22

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Let's separate out the facts from the speculation. It is a fact that ultra-fast frequency modulations have been observed in several stars in the Sloan survey.

The observed stars are in the spectral range F2 to K1. The spectral sequence for stars goes OBAFGKM and our sun is a type G2 star, so these stars are all 'fairly similar' to the sun. The F stars are of higher energy and the K stars are of lower energy (overall).

So the question arises as to what could cause this type of periodic (in frequency) change in intensity. The most obvious (to me) is some sort of resonance effect, which will produce exactly this type of signal. So where does the resonance come from? The original paper itself mentions the possibility of reflecting surfaces about 250 microns apart. To produce the signal seen, the reflectivity of those surfaces would be pretty low. Another possibility is resonance within the detecting device itself. But both of these explanations have the difficulty that only a few stars show this effect: only a couple hundred of the hundreds of thousands measured.

Another possible explanation comes from the way the data is processed. The data from the Sloan Survey aren't in frequency units, so the data has to be converted to such units before the Fourier analysis. A linear extrapolation between data points is used, which can itself give rise to periodic modulations. Again, though, the fact that such a signal is detected in only a few stars argues against this explanation.

The original paper proposes ETIs as a possible explanation. Given the wide range of physical effects that can produce a signal of this type, this seems premature. For example, it may be due to small scale turbulent layers in the atmospheres of a select collection of stars, possibly an effect that changes over time. Any type of resonant phenomenon anywhere along the data path could potentially be the source of this signal, especially if there is a resonance with just certain spectral types.

It should be noted that the spectral types reported for these stars are 'binned' and not evenly distributed. Also, preference in the surveys were for exactly the stars we are interested in (f through K). I also find it peculiar for the ETI hypothesis that 'signals' were found for type A stars also. These are typically considered to be too 'hot' for life to reasonably exist around them.

My personal guess is that this is an instrumental effect combined with a data processing effect. But that is a guess.

I also found another paper related to this suggesting the signal is actually an indirect detection of axion-like dark matter.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.02586.pdf

My recommendation: wait an see what shakes out of this. I'd find it interesting if the same effects are found in the same stars in a subsequent survey using different hardware. Until then, there are just too many parameters to form a firm conclusion.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Let's separate out the facts from the speculation. It is a fact that ultra-fast frequency modulations have been observed in several stars in the Sloan survey.

The observed stars are in the spectral range F2 to K1. The spectral sequence for stars goes OBAFGKM and our sun is a type G2 star, so these stars are all 'fairly similar' to the sun. The F stars are of higher energy and the K stars are of lower energy (overall).

So the question arises as to what could cause this type of periodic (in frequency) change in intensity. The most obvious (to me) is some sort of resonance effect, which will produce exactly this type of signal. So where does the resonance come from? The original paper itself mentions the possibility of reflecting surfaces about 250 microns apart. To produce the signal seen, the reflectivity of those surfaces would be pretty low. Another possibility is resonance within the detecting device itself. But both of these explanations have the difficulty that only a few stars show this effect: only a couple hundred of the hundreds of thousands measured.

Another possible explanation comes from the way the data is processed. The data from the Sloan Survey aren't in frequency units, so the data has to be converted to such units before the Fourier analysis. A linear extrapolation between data points is used, which can itself give rise to periodic modulations. Again, though, the fact that such a signal is detected in only a few stars argues against this explanation.

The original paper proposes ETIs as a possible explanation. Given the wide range of physical effects that can produce a signal of this type, this seems premature. For example, it may be due to small scale turbulent layers in the atmospheres of a select collection of stars, possibly an effect that changes over time. Any type of resonant phenomenon anywhere along the data path could potentially be the source of this signal, especially if there is a resonance with just certain spectral types.

It should be noted that the spectral types reported for these stars are 'binned' and not evenly distributed. Also, preference in the surveys were for exactly the stars we are interested in (f through K). I also find it peculiar for the ETI hypothesis that 'signals' were found for type A stars also. These are typically considered to be too 'hot' for life to reasonably exist around them.

My personal guess is that this is an instrumental effect combined with a data processing effect. But that is a guess.

I also found another paper related to this suggesting the signal is actually an indirect detection of axion-like dark matter.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.02586.pdf

My recommendation: wait an see what shakes out of this. I'd find it interesting if the same effects are found in the same stars in a subsequent survey using different hardware. Until then, there are just too many parameters to form a firm conclusion.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
My recommendation: wait an see what shakes out of this. I'd find it interesting if the same effects are found in the same stars in a subsequent survey using different hardware. Until then, there are just too many parameters to form a firm conclusion.

I'm very stoked about this! I'm very eagerly awaiting for the official press release from the Breakthrough Initiative program for their independent verification of the original Sloan survey results. :)
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
But....but...but that means you've now broken the embargo of secrecy, doesn't it? Won't men in black have to come round and kill you?

I'm lousy at keeping secrets. I couldn't keep a secret if my life depended on this. :( I'm hoping nobody at the foundation realizes I've prematurely leaked out the final results of their research work.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
First, there is no evidence that the observations were 'advanced laser technology for modulating these observed signals.' Second, the present consensus is these are natural signals. Third, they are not all determined to like out solar system to support life. Fourth, they are not sun-like stars.


pure unwarranted speculation.

I respectfully disagree, I think pure deductive reasoning logically concludes these observed signals most likely are from extraterrestrial advanced laser technology. The authors couldn't figure any natural cause for these peculiar periodic spectral modulations. Measurement errors get ruled out upon independent verification of their observations.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I respectfully disagree, I think pure deductive reasoning logically concludes these observed signals most likely are from extraterrestrial advanced laser technology. The authors couldn't figure any natural cause for these peculiar periodic spectral modulations. Measurement errors get ruled out upon independent verification of their observations.

Your classically 'arguing from ignorance,' believing since YOU do not believe science has an adequate answer to satisfy you, therefore alien intelligence. Unfortunately there is no evidence that this source could be an intelligent source.

I believe @Polymath257 gives a good answer.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
I'm lousy at keeping secrets. I couldn't keep a secret if my life depended on this. :( I'm hoping nobody at the foundation realizes I've prematurely leaked out the final results of their research work.
I wouldn't worry. Nobody will care much, as the findings are simply that there is a new and highly obscure phenomenon to explain. It often takes decades for explanations to come forward for new phenomenon like this. Jumping hysterically to the conclusion that it MUST be little green men, merely because they can't pull an immediate explanation off the shelf, is not something the science community is going to do.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I wouldn't worry. Nobody will care much, as the findings are simply that there is a new and highly obscure phenomenon to explain. It often takes decades for explanations to come forward for new phenomenon like this. Jumping hysterically to the conclusion that it MUST be little green men, merely because they can't pull an immediate explanation off the shelf, is not something the science community is going to do.

The scientific community doesn't usually jump to conclusions, not that there'd be anything wrong with that if logical deductive reasoning just happens to derive at the correct conclusion.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The scientific community doesn't usually jump to conclusions, not that there'd be anything wrong with that if logical deductive reasoning just happens to derive at the correct conclusion.
Careful, logical deductive reasoning only has any validity in science when supported by objective verifiable evidence.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Yes, this is why Breakthrough Initiative survey is verifying the data observed in the Sloan.survey. :cool:
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The scientific community doesn't usually jump to conclusions, not that there'd be anything wrong with that if logical deductive reasoning just happens to derive at the correct conclusion.


It wasn't a conclusion in the scientific sense. It was a proposed hypothesis.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, this is why Breakthrough Initiative survey is verifying the data observed in the Sloan.survey. :cool:

The data itself isn't as much in question as the interpretation of that data. We have some examples of data we don't understand with a couple of proposals for explanation. What we need isn't verification of the previous data, but *further* data to help us understand what is going on.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
The scientific community doesn't usually jump to conclusions, not that there'd be anything wrong with that if logical deductive reasoning just happens to derive at the correct conclusion.
You mean "arrive".

Deductive reasoning does not point to little green men, for the simple reason that in science one is often not dealing with only a finite set of possible explanations. New phenomena may require new explanations. To argue "we cannot think what could cause this, ergo little green men" is not deductive reasoning. In fact it is not reasoning at all. It is exactly what IDers do: "We do not have an explanation for how this feature of life could have evolved, ergo Goddidit."

The only people who argue like this are those with a fixed preconception that they are trying to push. Like you.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Thank's for the grammar correction. You're right. I meant "arrive" instead of "derive". I'm in agreement with the couple of scientists, who've authored the Discovery of Peculiar Periodic Spectral Modulations in a Small Fraction of Solar-type Stars, as they've thoughtfully considered the real possibility that " the signals are caused by intensity pulses generated by ETI, as suggested by Borra (2012), to make us aware of their existence." Of course, I'm not quite ready yet to celebrate the discovery of our distant cosmic relatives. "At this stage, the ETI generation of the spectral modulation is a hypothesis that needs to be confirmed with further work." :)
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Me too. Of course I'm only on my second cup of coffee.

I have read up on RNA though. Scientists believe that the odds that human RNA just came together at a certain point to create man is so astronomical that there had to be something beyond our comprehension involved in mans creation. Found that interesting.

Nobody believes that human RNA just came together to produce a man. Where did you come up with that?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Phantasman don't take it personally. It is just that bad science must be identified and crushed. And that is the duty of us all. If not the crackpots: flat earthers, creationists, Loch Ness Monster believers, ...... will force real science into a corner.

Wait.....are you saying the earth isn't flat???? :D
 
Nobody believes that human RNA just came together to produce a man. Where did you come up with that?

I think the question is: What was there before RNA? Once we have RNA I see no problem arriving at man - eventually o_O.

The difficulty with the former is that to date we haven't found it, and in truth we are not totally sure what we are looking for, and it seems very likely that it no longer exists. But I'm sure we'll get there.

It strikes me as odd that people believe something is too complex to have happened. Just look at the evolution tree of life and we see that almost impossible journeys from simplicity to complexity have occurred many, many times.

ps. still can't thank people's posts so a special thanks to those who offer facts and help extend my knowledge.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I think the question is: What was there before RNA? Once we have RNA I see no problem arriving at man - eventually o_O.

The difficulty with the former is that to date we haven't found it, and in truth we are not totally sure what we are looking for, and it seems very likely that it no longer exists. But I'm sure we'll get there.

It strikes me as odd that people believe something is too complex to have happened. Just look at the evolution tree of life and we see that almost impossible journeys from simplicity to complexity have occurred many, many times.

ps. still can't thank people's posts so a special thanks to those who offer facts and help extend my knowledge.

The current thought seems to be that there were just chemicals and minerals before RNA. The problem with reproducing RNA or DNA is that we don't know the conditions under which RNA arose, so we can't duplicate them.
 
The current thought seems to be that there were just chemicals and minerals before RNA. The problem with reproducing RNA or DNA is that we don't know the conditions under which RNA arose, so we can't duplicate them.

Milton that just seems too bigger a step for me. Everything I read and listen to seems to describe cell creation in logical steps, and then magically rna, and bob's your uncle. My gut feeling says we need more than a certain condition. rna just looks too complicated to have come out of a mix of basics. I imagine a multi-step process.

I'm also thinking that we shouldn't look at rna being a recipe, but that the instructions/data were developed in tandum with the related processes themselves.. A two way process. After all my favourite cake recipe evolves as my random cake making evolves.

But it is just my gut feel on one of the most fascinating and complex (well so it seems) mysteries. Now retired I'm loving the trip. Just hope we make more breakthroughs before I die :cool:
 
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