Russian chest thumping - Chinese incursions

[ImmortalFlame]

As you don't trust Maria Zakharova or media approved of by the Kremlin,
I don't trust media approved of by Soros.

The difference is that I can easily prove that a lot of media approved by the Kremlin is false. Hence the numerous times I proved you lied.

I do respect your mistrust but I expect you to trust mine.
There is also the possibility to debate civilly and to find points we can agree on.

Not if you are insistent on lying, which you clearly want to do.

If you really are interested in civil debate, you can begin by demonstrating your good faith and honesty by, first, providing the "confidential documents that prove Putin wants peace", second, acknowledging and admitting that you lied about Poroshenko, and third, providing all the evidence that Ukraine - or NATO or "the west" or whoever - "forced" Russia to invade Ukraine for political reasons.

When you demonstrate honesty, you demonstrate that good faith debate is possible.

I don't think it is, and I don't think you will.

 

[Estro Felino]

The difference is that I can easily prove that a lot of media approved by the Kremlin is false. Hence the numerous times I proved you lied.


Not if you are insistent on lying, which you clearly want to do.

If you really are interested in civil debate, you can begin by demonstrating your good faith and honesty by, first, providing the "confidential documents that prove Putin wants peace", second, acknowledging and admitting that you lied about Poroshenko, and third, providing all the evidence that Ukraine - or NATO or "the west" or whoever - "forced" Russia to invade Ukraine for political reasons.

When you demonstrate honesty, you demonstrate that good faith debate is possible.

I don't think it is, and I don't think you will.

I have never lied about Putin. I have never lied about Poroshenko.
Putin does want peace: as long as Ukrainians acknowledge the autonomy of Donbas, Crimea, Kharkiv, Zhaporizhzha.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have never lied about Putin.

You claimed to have "confidential documents that proved Putin wants peace". I asked you to provide them. You ignored my requests and then deleted your claim.

You lied.

I have never lied about Poroshenko.

You claimed Poroshenko made a speech in which he threatened the people of Donbas. He did not. He plainly stated that the people of the Dobas would be won over peacefully because the controlling Russian separatists will deprive them of rights, but that Ukraine would not.

You lied.

Putin does want peace: as long as Ukrainians acknowledge the autonomy of Donbas, Crimea, Kharkiv, Zhaporizhzha.

Why should they acknowledge the autonomy of areas stolen from them by a corrupt, tyranical imperilaist?

If I broke into your house and seized control of your bedroom by violently punching you in the face, dragging you outside, and then refusing to leave, do you think it is reasonable to say I want "peace" just as long as you recognize that your bedroom is now mine and you have to let me have it, otherwise I will keep punching you and dragging you outside until you do?

No.

Putin invaded.

He does not want peace.

He wants Ukraine.

Stop lying.

 

[Father Heathen]

Putin does want peace: as long as Ukrainians acknowledge the autonomy of Donbas, Crimea, Kharkiv, Zhaporizhzha.

Let the Ukrainian people keep their land and give Putin Italian territory instead.

 

[Estro Felino]

Let the Ukrainian people keep their land and give Putin Italian territory instead.

Once Putin said in an interview: Italians love Russians so much...that I need zero efforts to make Italy like me.
Or something like that....
Berlusconi and Putin: an enduring love

 

[Father Heathen]

Once Putin said in an interview: Italians love Russians so much...that I need zero efforts to make Italy like me.
Or something like that....
Berlusconi and Putin: an enduring love

So does this mean you agree that Italy should give their land to Putin so that the Ukrainians may keep their own? You said sacrifices should be made for peace, after all.

 

[Father Heathen]

Both Zelenskyy and Soros are Jewish. Makes you wonder to what degree antisemitism plays in the attempt to paint them as villains.

 

[Estro Felino]

So does this mean you agree that Italy should give their land to Putin so that the Ukrainians may keep their own? You said sacrifices should be made for peace, after all.

He would never accept.
Because he wants those land, which are filled with Russian speaking people who want to join the Russian Federation. He is not interested in Italy.

 

[Estro Felino]

Both Zelenskyy and Soros are Jewish. Makes you wonder to what degree antisemitism plays in the attempt to paint them as villains.

Seymour Hersh said that the Americans were in on it, as for the sabotage of Nordstream.
He is Jewish.

Is he right or wrong?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

He would never accept.
Because he wants those land, which are filled with Russian speaking people who want to join the Russian Federation. He is not interested in Italy.

Weird how these lands only suddenly became "filled with Russian speaking people who want to join the Russian Federation" after he illegally annexed them and held a series of extremely poorly regulated referendums without any independent or international oversight.

Are you ever going to stop defending imperialism? What kind of socialist are you?

 

[lukethethird]

Of course it isn't. Are you suggesting that one justifies the other?

I'm suggesting that this is not about good vs evil. Atrocities are committed on both sides.

 

[lukethethird]

What evidence exists of widespread, state-sanctioned torture or rape of Russian speaking Ukrainians in East Ukraine?

I educated myself by reading up on the history of Ukraine since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1990, but it appears not many others on this thread have cared to do that. I would say that one side in this conflict is in no way morally superior to the other, but one would never get that impression by the narrative the mainstream media presents us with.

 

[Father Heathen]

He would never accept.
Because he wants those land, which are filled with Russian speaking people who want to join the Russian Federation. He is not in interested in Italy.

Let them migrate back to Russia if they want to be a part of it.

From what I've read, Romanians are the largest immigrant group in Italy, so perhaps your area should be annexed by Romania.

 

[Father Heathen]

Seymour Hersh said that the Americans were in on it, as for the sabotage of Nordstream.
He is Jewish.

Is he right or wrong?

I've no interest in conspiracy theories, nor am I about to entertain them.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't care.

The point is that you lied.

Sometimes desperate committed belief
leads to odd rationalizations that mimic
lying, but really aren't
So let's be a wee bit more charitable.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's the height of hypocrisy for China to threaten
retaliation for our downing their surveillance balloon
that traversed the entire continental USA.
After all they downed one of our surveillance planes
that was operating in international waters, & nearly
killed everyone on board.

I expect that China's & Putin's apologists will commit
whataboutism by accusing USA of various sins. This
is to avoid implicating the real provocateur....China.

 

[Estro Felino]

Italians do make a good shotgun though.
The Benelli M4 is tough, & survives being
dropped when given up while surrendering.

I think that an alliance is made up of mutual respect. If the US wants to respect its allies, they are supposed to listen to them. Destroying Libya wasn't fair to Italy.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think that an alliance is made up of mutual respect. If the US wants to respect its allies, they are supposed to listen to them. Destroying Libya wasn't fair to Italy.

Is this one of the reasons Italy sides with Russia?

 

[Estro Felino]

Is this one of the reasons Italy sides with Russia?

After Nine Eleven the Mediterranean area became more and more unstable. So we were hoping the US would be on the side of the West by favoring peace in this area of the world.
Electing Obama was absolutely suicidal, considering the wars and turmoil his administration unleashed.
Trump, on the contrary favored peace everywhere.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I educated myself by reading up on the history of Ukraine since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1990, but it appears not many others on this thread have cared to do that. I would say that one side in this conflict is in no way morally superior to the other, but one would never get that impression by the narrative the mainstream media presents us with.

That's not what I asked. I am fairly well up on Ukraine's history post-USSR, the Euromaidan protests, etc. What I asked is whether or not there is evidence that violence or oppression against Russia-affiliated people in the Donbas was either widespread or directly attributable to the Ukrainian government. Does such evidence exist? Because, to my knowledge, the violence was neither government-sanctioned nor widespread.