• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Salvation

Mahacandra

Great Moon
Do we know all about the laws of nature?

We no enough to say that a simple command cannot change chemical structure, i.e., Jesus says "So be it" will not turn water into wine.

Didn't Jesus base his beliefs on logic and reasoning on Scripture?

So what if he did? He didn't used logic and reason to defend scripture.

Jesus often referred to or quoted Scripture to make his point and as final authority on matters.

This presumes a belief in Scripture. If the scriptures were true, then yes, Jesus would be telling truths. But the Scriptures themselves are devoid of logic and reasoning, and thus, to use them as final authority does nothing to support or defend god, miracles, and heaven.

At the time of Adam's loosing paradise, as far as time frame is considered, paradise was far away starting at the time of Adam's sin. In a nut shell, time was needed for mankind to be born and choose how they want to live.
We are now living at the time frame of 2nd Tim [3vs1-5,13] the last days of badness on earth before Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth starting with the living on earth sheep-like ones of Matt [25v32]. Those people can remain alive on earth and have the prospect of everlasting life on earth on a beautiful paradisaic earth. So what Adam undid, so to speak, Jesus will undo the damage Satan and Adam caused.

Might I point out that, first of all, that almost every Biblical scholar, archeologist, and historian, considers Revelations was written about Nero? But I can see why you would disagree, so I won't push that point.
Doesn't it say that the Temple of Solomon has to be rebuilt before the end times can come? From what I remember, there were three steps. The Jews had to return to the homeland, Israel had to be refounded, and the temple had to be rebuilt. Then the events described in Revelation would happen. Since the temple hasn't been rebuilt, I see no reason to believe the end times are going to happen anytime soon. Why do you?

If you were God having the ability not only to create but regulate weather conditions wouldn't you do so? What we see surrounding the earth today is the result of Adam choosing independence from God. What we see earth wide is proof that man can not successfully direct his step. Mankind needs God to step in and bring to ruin those ruining the earth as Rev [11v18 b] brings out.

So, if I accept the direction of a being whose existence cannot be proven, he will give me unending life in a magical paradise?
I see no reason to believe this, besides a hopeless idealism that is more easily fulfilled by Far-Right Nationalism (at least we can see the empirical effects of that).

If not God's kingdom government [Dan 7vs13,14; 2v44; Isa 9v7;11v4] as the solution of mankind's problems, then what do you see that will succeed?

Reason and Logic.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Not quite sure why you say just the saints?
Tribulation Saints. The ones who endure physically through the Great Tribulation. This is from Mathew 24, and it describes that time of terrible suffering and says that if the days were not cut short nobody would be saved, that is survive, physically.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
If can not be reversed, then how do you explain Matthew 12v32
and Hebrews 6vs4-6; 10v26?

If they have not endured to the end [Matt 24v13] of this world of badness or the end of their life, and have committed the unforgivable sin how can they be pardoned?

Wasn't Paul concerned about being a castaway? -1st Cor 9v27
Hi, Mathew 12:32 is tied in with this unforgiveable sin: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which was fulfilled when the religious leaders attributed Jesus' miracles to Beelzebub, thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That sin cannot be repeated now since Jesus and nobody else is walking around performing miracles all the time. The unforgiveable sin would simply mean to finaly and for all time reject salvation through Jesus Christ. Paul was concerned about becoming a castaway in the sense that he would be no longer useful in spreading the Gospel if he did not 'buffet' his body and keep himself under control. Many a pastor and layman has fallen and lost his usefulness for times due to lack of self-control. I believe Hebrews, written to Jews, was basically saying that if they trample under foot the son of God, and do not accept, or believe in the cross, and go back under the Law, then there is no salvation, again because they reject the cross, they reject Christ. Even though they have seen the miracles and heard the message with signs following, the cross is an offense to them. The last verse in Hebrews 10 says: But we aren't people who pull back and are destroyed. We are people who believe and are saved. So, it is those who have not believed who are not saved every time. But once we have believed, we are freely saved, the Bible says to the uttermost, and I can give many verses promising us full assurance of salvation.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians. Hebrews that became Christians.

Hebrews 6 vs4-6 says it is impossible for those that have tasted the heavenly free gift... if they will fall away to renew them again.......

Those that were natural fleshly Jews that did not become Christian would not have tasted the heavenly free gift.

UnChristian Jews or natural Hebrews would not draw back or shrink back from something of which they were never apart- Hebrews 10vs38,39.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
If you believe that means loss of salvation, then take it all the way. It says it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN. Do you believe if you have a moment or day or week,month or year of doubt, lack of faith, disbelief, questioning of the scriptures, etc. or if you perhaps sin or sinned "too much" or whatnot, that it is impossible to be saved again? Of course not.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If you believe that means loss of salvation, then take it all the way. It says it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN. Do you believe if you have a moment or day or week,month or year of doubt, lack of faith, disbelief, questioning of the scriptures, etc. or if you perhaps sin or sinned "too much" or whatnot, that it is impossible to be saved again? Of course not.

Having that moment,day,week,month or year of doubt....is actually showing one has Not committed the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12v32 that will not be forgiven now or in the world to come under Jesus thousand-year reign.

Those of 1st Cor 15v50; Daniel 7v18 are part of the ones that have tasted the heavenly free gift and rejected it. They do Not doubt. They are not part of the 'other sheep' but part of the 'little flock'.

Think of Satan and even Adam for that matter. Neither never repented, neither never showed or expressed remorse. They were Not doubters.
They knew what they were doing and did not turn back to do right.
They lost salvation [everlasting life] but we are born into imperfection of mind and body, thus we are not responsible. Sin through imperfection is not the same as committing the unforgivable sin of those of Hebrews 6vs4-6.

The goat-like ones of Matthew 25 are Not saved.
Psalm 92v7; Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,15; Jeremiah 25vs31-33
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I sorta follow you, but not really. I do think Adam was forgiven. the symbolism of God killing 2 animals to make clothes for Adam and Eve makes me think so. Plus, they lived a long time and I am sure they were very sorry, especially when they saw the terrible consequences of their disobedience.

In the Age of Grace or Church Age we are in now, I believe when one believes in Christ for salvation, that is a once and for all irreversible deal.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I sorta follow you, but not really. I do think Adam was forgiven. the symbolism of God killing 2 animals to make clothes for Adam and Eve makes me think so. Plus, they lived a long time and I am sure they were very sorry, especially when they saw the terrible consequences of their disobedience.
In the Age of Grace or Church Age we are in now, I believe when one believes in Christ for salvation, that is a once and for all irreversible deal.

Is Hebrews 6 vs4-6 an irreversible salvation deal?

Adam and Satan never showed remorse or sorrow or ever repented.
Remember they were created with perfection.
They could only sin on purpose, deliberate.
We being of imperfect mind and body can sin by mistake.
That is why we can repent and show sorrow and remorse.

Remember Adam and Eve died 'in the day' of their eating.
Not a literal 24-hour day but within a thousand-year day.
That is why all sinners die before reaching age 1000.
Including the oldest man in Scripture.

If Adam had regained his original human perfection of sound mind and body then Adam would still be alive today. Remember Adam was offered eternal life if obedient. Disobedience meant death.

Did Satan ever repent? [Rev 12vs9,12]
Since Jesus destroys Satan [Hebrews 2v14b]
then it shows Satan does not repent.
This includes his demons [fallen angels]

Adam came from dust.
Adam returned to dust.
Adam was created as a living soul or person. [Gen 2v7]
Sin causes death. If one could stop sinning one would not die.
At death sinner Adam became a lifeless soul or became a dead soul.
[Ezekiel 18vs4,20]

Isn't Jesus time of 'glory' for our day? Isn't the separation of people [Matt 25vs31,32] for our day or age?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I believe they died both physically and spiritually when they disobeyed in the garden. We inherited this problem, we are born spiritually dead and we all die physically as they eventually did. I believe that the OT people who believed in God, in a way were looking forward to the cross while we look back to it in time. So, even though Adam, and all of us die physically, we do not all have to stay spiritually dead. Our spirits are 'quickened' or made alive when we first trust Christ.
 

Misty

Well-Known Member
I believe they died both physically and spiritually when they disobeyed in the garden. We inherited this problem, we are born spiritually dead and we all die physically as they eventually did. I believe that the OT people who believed in God, in a way were looking forward to the cross while we look back to it in time. So, even though Adam, and all of us die physically, we do not all have to stay spiritually dead. Our spirits are 'quickened' or made alive when we first trust Christ.

None of that makes the slightest bit of sense to me at all!
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I believe they died both physically and spiritually when they disobeyed in the garden. We inherited this problem, we are born spiritually dead and we all die physically as they eventually did. I believe that the OT people who believed in God, in a way were looking forward to the cross while we look back to it in time. So, even though Adam, and all of us die physically, we do not all have to stay spiritually dead. Our spirits are 'quickened' or made alive when we first trust Christ.

We become spiritually alive when we come to a real knowledge of Scripture.
Sin=Death. If we could stop sinning we would not die. Since we can not resurrect oneself or another we need Jesus to do that for us....and he will.

Yes, OT believing people were in 'expectation' of the Messiah coming.
-Luke 3v15.

In our time frame, those favored ones on earth at the time of Jesus 'glory' [Matt 25vs32,40] are living on earth and they can remain alive on earth, or remain living on earth right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth when Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
-Proverbs 2vs21,22; 10v30; Psalm 37vs11,29,38; 92v7
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
We no enough to say that a simple command cannot change chemical structure, i.e., Jesus says "So be it" will not turn water into wine.
So what if he did? He didn't used logic and reason to defend scripture.
This presumes a belief in Scripture. If the scriptures were true, then yes, Jesus would be telling truths. But the Scriptures themselves are devoid of logic and reasoning, and thus, to use them as final authority does nothing to support or defend god, miracles, and heaven.
Might I point out that, first of all, that almost every Biblical scholar, archeologist, and historian, considers Revelations was written about Nero? But I can see why you would disagree, so I won't push that point.
Doesn't it say that the Temple of Solomon has to be rebuilt before the end times can come? From what I remember, there were three steps. The Jews had to return to the homeland, Israel had to be refounded, and the temple had to be rebuilt. Then the events described in Revelation would happen. Since the temple hasn't been rebuilt, I see no reason to believe the end times are going to happen anytime soon. Why do you?
So, if I accept the direction of a being whose existence cannot be proven, he will give me unending life in a magical paradise?
I see no reason to believe this, besides a hopeless idealism that is more easily fulfilled by Far-Right Nationalism (at least we can see the empirical effects of that).
Reason and Logic.

A simple command from an imperfect human will never change water into wine. Jesus was born with human perfection of sound mind and body because he had a perfect Father.

Why do you say Jesus did not use logic and reason to defend Scripture?
[Matt 4v4,7,10; 11v10;21v13;26v31; Mark 9v13;14v27; Luke 24v46;
John 6v45; 8v17]

NO. Revelation does not say the temple of Solomon has to be rebuilt before the end times of all badness on earth comes. I think you might be thinking of the 'restoration prophecies' already fulfilled in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Since Pentecost the Israel of God was no longer fleshly but spiritual.
After Pentecost [Romans 2vs28,29] the reference to Jews is in connection to spiritual Jews. Not fleshly, national Israel of today, but spiritual Jews which is another way to say Christian. In other words, a natural Jew can become a Christian just as anyone one else from any other background or culture can.

Why do I think the end times of badness on earth is approaching is because not only the bad attitudes and actions described at 2nd Tim [3vs1-5,13] in these last days of badness on earth, but because of bad religious conditions on earth today. In the past when Israel went religiously astray God allowed the political world to act against them. This was also true in the year 70 with Titus.
Religion mixing with the political will cause the political world to turn on her.
Perhaps too, a bad economy could cause the political sector to want the wealth the religious sector has amassed.

Rev 17v2 mentions the political world sector as 'kings' . Rev 18v7 mentions the world's religious sector as a 'queen'. The political kings or nationalistic world powers will turn on the worldly false religious queen that has run afoul proving herself false to God and his Word. The world scene today is leading up to that happening. The United Nations with the world's political backing can be strengthened to turn on such troublesome religion that has created a growing dangerous religious climate in the world today. Couple this with the fact that Matthew [24v14] is being fulfilled on a grand scale. World wide the proclaiming of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus as the solution to mankind's problems is being done on a global scale as never before in history and nothing or no one can stop it.

The world scene apparently will look as though 'business as usual' so to speak but there is a final signal or trigger mentioned at 1st Thess. 5vs2,3 that when they [powers that be] are saying 'peace an security' then Jesus comes by surprise. Apparently there doesn't have to be peace but just talks of it.
There is very little left to the major fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24 and Luke 21.
 

Misty

Well-Known Member
Jesus was born with human perfection of sound mind and body because he had a perfect Father.

You obviously haven't read the same bible that I read. God comes over as evil and Jesus was hardly perfect just human like the rest of us.
 

Tre-L

Two Tears In a Bucket
I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Nearly every Christian I know proclaims salvation, but most Christians rarely offer a definition of what Christian salvation is. What 'exactly' does it mean to be saved, then? Does it mean that we are free from sin, or the wages of? Does it mean that we will live in paradise for all eternity, or is there more to it than this?

What if salvation is a state of mind, or a state of emotional well being? What if salvation actually means freedom or liberty from the negative forces that most everyone allows themselves to dwell on? Is it possible that scriptural laws and principles simply exist to help us (as a species) to conquer those forces that harm us inwardly/emotionally? This is what I think salvation is truly about. It is about living a life free from the negative forces (Like fear) that we allow to control our inner/emotional well being.

True salvation comes when we let go of our tendencies to resit love. Whether we believe in God or not, I believe Love (Gods Spirit) can lead us to true liberty (Salvation). It is written that fear causes torment, but that perfect love casts out fear. To know in our hearts, to trust, and to have faith that Gods love extends to even "you" is one of the most empowering and comforting realities that I can think of.

Tre-L
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Nearly every Christian I know proclaims salvation, but most Christians rarely offer a definition of what Christian salvation is. What 'exactly' does it mean to be saved, then? Does it mean that we are free from sin, or the wages of? Does it mean that we will live in paradise for all eternity, or is there more to it than this?
What if salvation is a state of mind, or a state of emotional well being? What if salvation actually means freedom or liberty from the negative forces that most everyone allows themselves to dwell on? Is it possible that scriptural laws and principles simply exist to help us (as a species) to conquer those forces that harm us inwardly/emotionally? This is what I think salvation is truly about. It is about living a life free from the negative forces (Like fear) that we allow to control our inner/emotional well being.
True salvation comes when we let go of our tendencies to resit love. Whether we believe in God or not, I believe Love (Gods Spirit) can lead us to true liberty (Salvation). It is written that fear causes torment, but that perfect love casts out fear. To know in our hearts, to trust, and to have faith that Gods love extends to even "you" is one of the most empowering and comforting realities that I can think of.
Tre-L

Your title of two tears in a bucket reminded me of what someone said only on a much grander scale. He said because of all the suffering and sadness on earth that there are more tears shed on earth than water in the Ocean.

Saved or Salvation for our time frame is survival for the living.
Being delivered from this world of badness. -Rev 11v18 B
Jesus was plain when he said at Matt 24v13 that the one that endures to the end will be saved. The 'end' Jesus was referring was the end times of all badness on earth when Jesus takes action to rid the earth of the wicked and ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

Except for those of Matt 12v32;Hebrews 6vs4-6, the majority of mankind will be saved because the already dead will be resurrected by Jesus. Acts 24v15.

Those alive at the time of what Matthew [25vs31,32] calls Jesus 'glory', or time of divine intervention into mankind's affairs, those who show themselves to be 'sheep-like' mild tempered, humble meek people can be saved alive or survive right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.
-Matt 5v5; Psalm 37 vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2 vs21,22;10v30
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus was born with human perfection of sound mind and body because he had a perfect Father.
You obviously haven't read the same bible that I read. God comes over as evil and Jesus was hardly perfect just human like the rest of us.

What sin did Jesus commit? _____ If he committed no sin then Jesus had human perfection of sound mind and body.

Wasn't God's wrath against enemies?
Against those beyond reform.
Parents are responsible for minor children.
Which parent put their child on the Ark in Noah's day?
Besides an Ark builder wasn't Noah a preacher of righteousness?
see 2nd Peter 2v5
Noah and his family had half a century to teach people about the coming Flood. The people did not heed what Noah preached.
The same is true today the majority will not heed Jesus message in order to be saved or survive the end of this world of badness.
Who is the executioner mentioned at Isaiah 11v4 & Rev 19v15?
 

Misty

Well-Known Member
What sin did Jesus commit? _____ If he committed no sin then Jesus had human perfection of sound mind and body.

Wasn't God's wrath against enemies?
Against those beyond reform.
Parents are responsible for minor children.
Which parent put their child on the Ark in Noah's day?
Besides an Ark builder wasn't Noah a preacher of righteousness?
see 2nd Peter 2v5
Noah and his family had half a century to teach people about the coming Flood. The people did not heed what Noah preached.
The same is true today the majority will not heed Jesus message in order to be saved or survive the end of this world of badness.
Who is the executioner mentioned at Isaiah 11v4 & Rev 19v15?

Jesus had a nasty temper, was arrogant, and said some stupid things, likely hating your family, and leaving your responsibilites to follow him. That is not my definition of perfection.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus had a nasty temper, was arrogant, and said some stupid things, likely hating your family, and leaving your responsibilites to follow him. That is not my definition of perfection.

Please post the verses you have in mind.

Hate in the Scriptures can mean love to a lesser degree.
Such as at Luke 14v26 we are not even to put our own life ahead of another.
Remember Jesus new commandment at John 13vs34,35; 15v13?

Luke [10v27] also wrote to Love God in four [4] ways:
1] with all your heart
2] with all your soul
3] with all your strength
4] with all your mind
Then Luke concludes that verse with love neighbor as self.

Did you notice it does not say hate neighbor as the world thinks of hatred, but not to love neighbor has much as God but love as self. So loving neighbor to a lesser degree corresponds with that degree of hate of loving God more.

Luke then goes on to describe how we can w-i-d-e-n out in our love of neighbor by the illustration of the 'Good Samaritan' at verses 30-37.
Luke's words connect neighborly love with mercy not hate,
but the Good Samaritan was not to love neighbor more than God.
So, Jesus did not teach hatred of family. Love people less than God.
However, Jesus did forewarn a man's foes could be of one's own household
[Matt 10v36] because household members could be opposed to one choosing to following Christ. At first even some in Jesus own family were opposed to him.

What do you find arrogant or stupid, etc. with Jesus Sermon on the Mount?
 

Tre-L

Two Tears In a Bucket
People should always be loved more than a supposed deity which may well be mythical!

What if "God" is simply a metaphor for all that is "good" in life? Shouldn't we then value and love what is good first? If we don't value and love what is good first, then how can we possibly love others effectively?
 
Top