Salvation

[Misty]

What if "God" is simply a metaphor for all that is "good" in life? Shouldn't we then value and love what is good first? If we don't value and love what is good first, then how can we possibly love others effectively?

It depends on which god you see as good, it doesn't apply to the god of the Bible in my opinion.

 

[Tre-L]

It depends on which god you see as good, it doesn't apply to the god of the Bible in my opinion.

The point I was making is that the term "God" is possibly derived from the concept of "good" and likewise the term "Devil" is possibly derived from the concept of "evil". Good being the positive and creative force in existence, and evil being the destructive and negative force in existence. The God of the bible seems to be a morph of both good and evil. He seems to be more of a combination of both, so I agree with your sentiments.

 

[Misty]

The point I was making is that the term "God" is possibly derived from the concept of "good" and likewise the term "Devil" is possibly derived from the concept of "evil". Good being the positive and creative force in existence, and evil being the destructive and negative force in existence. The God of the bible seems to be a morph of both good and evil. He seems to be more of a combination of both, so I agree with your sentiments.

And I agree with you.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The point I was making is that the term "God" is possibly derived from the concept of "good" and likewise the term "Devil" is possibly derived from the concept of "evil". Good being the positive and creative force in existence, and evil being the destructive and negative force in existence. The God of the bible seems to be a morph of both good and evil. He seems to be more of a combination of both, so I agree with your sentiments.

Remember evil in Scripture is Not always synonymous with wrong doing.

Evil in Scripture is also associated with: calamity.
Calamity was brought upon people [and angels] who were beyond reform, beyond repentance. Jesus destroys unrepentant Satan according to Hebrews [2v14b] So Satan's destruction is calamity [or even an evil] for him.

 

[javajo]

None of that makes the slightest bit of sense to me at all!

Romans. The curse by one man, Adam, and the cure, by Jesus.

 

[javajo]

We become spiritually alive when we come to a real knowledge of Scripture.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39-40
We become spiritually alive when we come to Christ. A lot of people have read the Bible but not come to Christ to have life. Of course, a real, truthful study of the Bible should lead one to believe in him and thus be spiritually born again.

 

[waitasec]

I believe they died both physically and spiritually when they disobeyed in the garden. We inherited this problem, we are born spiritually dead and we all die physically as they eventually did. I believe that the OT people who believed in God, in a way were looking forward to the cross while we look back to it in time. So, even though Adam, and all of us die physically, we do not all have to stay spiritually dead. Our spirits are 'quickened' or made alive when we first trust Christ.

this doesn't make sense

the "fall" was about them, adam and eve.
god said, "YOU will surely die"

why take the easy route and say we inherited death? is it because WE all die that you can stand their and say such a thing?

yes WE all die, why?
must their be a reason? don't we try to put order in the chaos within the confines our logic? bible included...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

this doesn't make sense
the "fall" was about them, adam and eve.
god said, "YOU will surely die"
why take the easy route and say we inherited death? is it because WE all die that you can stand their and say such a thing?
yes WE all die, why?
must their be a reason? don't we try to put order in the chaos within the confines our logic? bible included...

What is the wage or price that sin pays? Isn't it death at Romans 6v23?
In other words if one could stop sinning one would not die.
Do you know anyone that can stop sinning?
Even a parent knows at birth the child's leanings will be toward imperfection.

The difference is Satan and Adam being perfect could only sin on purpose, intentional, deliberate whereas we being imperfect can sin by mistake.
Nevertheless, we do sin, so we do die.

 

[waitasec]

What is the wage or price that sin pays? Isn't it death at Romans 6v23?
In other words if one could stop sinning one would not die.
Do you know anyone that can stop sinning?
Even a parent knows at birth the child's leanings will be toward imperfection.

The difference is Satan and Adam being perfect could only sin on purpose, intentional, deliberate whereas we being imperfect can sin by mistake.
Nevertheless, we do sin, so we do die.

if god created satan the angel, how did satan become evil? you say on purpose, so there is freedom of will in heaven then. according to your logic, if one goes to heaven with free will, they can still loose their salvation by sinning against god.

we one earth, on the other hand, sin by mistake because we are imperfect.
and god holds us accountable for being exactly what we were created for.


hmmmmm

 

[URAVIP2ME]

if god created satan the angel, how did satan become evil? you say on purpose, so there is freedom of will in heaven then. according to your logic, if one goes to heaven with free will, they can still loose their salvation by sinning against god.
we one earth, on the other hand, sin by mistake because we are imperfect.
and god holds us accountable for being exactly what we were created for.
hmmmmm

But Satan did not 'go' to heaven with free will.
Satan 'came' here from heaven with free will.

Yes there is freedom of will in heaven.
Angels like humans are created as mortal.
Obey willingly and live
Disobey willingly and die.
Satan disobeyed willingly that is why he will be destroyed -Hebrews 2v14 B.

James answers the question how Satan became evil at James [1vs14,15].
Satan was drawn out and enticed by his own desire.
The desire to have humans worship him.

As far as humans being resurrected to heaven please notice 1st Cor 15vs50-54. Jesus 'brothers' of verse 50 are granted or gifted with being able to 'put on immortality' as was Jesus at John 5v26 to have life in themselves.

Remember Adam was not offered immortality but everlasting life.
Immortality or life from within is somewhat different.
Everlasting life is not only dependent on obeying God but other factors such as Adam would have to always breathe and eat and sleep, etc.
Immortal would be self contained.
So not angels, but humans gifted to reign with Jesus [Rev 5vs9,10;20v6;Dan 7v18], have proven themselves faithful like Jesus to the point that God knows they will not turn to badness as Satan and the fallen angels did.

God holds all accountable for their own actions.
We are all responsible for our own actions.
This does not mean we are left on our own.
Please see 1st John 2v1; 4v10:
....if any man sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.

 

[tarasan]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

well what do you mean by this

is that 100 percent certian we will get into heaven
or

or mostly sure that we will get into heaven?

 

[waitasec]

But Satan did not 'go' to heaven with free will. Satan 'came' here from heaven with free will.

where did the free will come from, he must have acquired it in heaven

if god created satan the angel, how did satan become evil? you say on purpose, so there is freedom of will in heaven then. according to your logic, if one goes to heaven with free will, they can still loose their salvation by sinning against god.

Yes there is freedom of will in heaven.
Angels like humans are created as mortal.
Obey willingly and live
Disobey willingly and die.
Satan disobeyed willingly that is why he will be destroyed -Hebrews 2v14 B.

according to your belief, we can still loose our salvation even though we made it to heaven

obey willingly...? you mean obey with the knowledge of a dire consequence...obey consequentially
freedom cannot exist in the presence of fear

James answers the question how Satan became evil at James [1vs14,15].
Satan was drawn out and enticed by his own desire.
The desire to have humans worship him.

were humans already in existence when satan desired to have humans worship him? i thought all this happen before the first man

(on a side note, i don't worship an evil being...do you know anyone that does?)


interesting interpretation...
no where is satan mentioned in the passage you gave me

james 1:13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

seems as though
our free will is the nemesis of the god in your bible,
lots of fear mongering going on here...

Remember Adam was not offered immortality but everlasting life.
Immortality or life from within is somewhat different.
Everlasting life is not only dependent on obeying God but other factors such as Adam would have to always breathe and eat and sleep, etc.
Immortal would be self contained.
So not angels, but humans gifted to reign with Jesus [Rev 5vs9,10;20v6;Dan 7v18], have proven themselves faithful like Jesus to the point that God knows they will not turn to badness as Satan and the fallen angels did.

again with the fear of death mongering...
death will happen, like it or not. the way you choose to diminish your fear of death is entirely your business, just don't think you are the mediator between my freedom and the will of your god...
your religious belief does not trump my freedom

God holds all accountable for their own actions.
We are all responsible for our own actions.
This does not mean we are left on our own.
Please see 1st John 2v1; 4v10:
....if any man sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.

yes we are aren't we...
dignity is what guides the dignified

 

[Muffled]

well what do you mean by this

is that 100 percent certian we will get into heaven
or

or mostly sure that we will get into heaven?

There is more than one salvation. That is why it gets so confusing. Going to Heaven saves a person from having to bear evil since there is none there.

Salvaton from sin comes with accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Salvation from judgement redemption) also comes with receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior.

There is only one way to have this, know how to get to Heaven and be prepared to do what is required.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

where did the free will come from, he must have acquired it in heaven
according to your belief, we can still loose our salvation even though we made it to heaven
obey willingly...? you mean obey with the knowledge of a dire consequence...obey consequentially
freedom cannot exist in the presence of fear
were humans already in existence when satan desired to have humans worship him? i thought all this happen before the first man
(on a side note, i don't worship an evil being...do you know anyone that does?)
interesting interpretation...
no where is satan mentioned in the passage you gave me
james 1:13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
seems as though
our free will is the nemesis of the god in your bible,
lots of fear mongering going on here...
again with the fear of death mongering...
death will happen, like it or not. the way you choose to diminish your fear of death is entirely your business, just don't think you are the mediator between my freedom and the will of your god...
your religious belief does not trump my freedom
yes we are aren't we...
dignity is what guides the dignified

Doesn't a Bible-trained conscience in Christ-like love as defined at 1st Cor 13vs4-6; John 13vs34,35 dignify all?
Doesn't practicing the Golden Rule dignify all?
1st John 4v18 plainly states: there is no fear in love.
Why should there be fear in obedience. Isn't one usually troubled or in fear when they disobey? Remember 'perfect' people and angels can only disobey on purpose, deliberately, intentionally, willfully. We, on the other hand, being of imperfect of mind and body can sin or disobey by mistake.

Are you free from sin, sickness and death? If not, are you really free?
Jesus said the truth will set you free. Free from what? Jesus was talking about religious truth or truth taught in Scripture. So Jesus meant such religious truth would set you free from what is religiously false besides in the end setting us free from sin, sickness and death. -Rev 21vs4,5 >death will be no more.

Doesn't the resurrection hope [Acts 24v15] take away fear of death?

Isn't it a secure feeling to read Romans [6v7] that the one who has died is freed or acquitted from sin? So, except for those of Matt 12v32; Heb 6vs4-6, Jesus will resurrect to either heaven or an earthly resurrection in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham that all families of earth will be blessed and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the prospect of gaining everlasting life on a blooming paradisaic earth forever. Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2.

Since all resurrected to heaven 'put on' immortality [1Cor 15vs50,53,54] then they can not loose their salvation in heaven. However, please note: that the 'fallen angels' have lost their heavenly salvation.-Jude 6; Heb 2v14 B.

In the Greek Interlinear: James [1vs13-15] uses no 'one' rather than the KJV word translated as no man.
So from the Greek 'one' can include all in heaven and on earth such as Satan being drawn out by his own wrong desire.

As far as worship of an evil being....
Jesus said at John 4vs23,24 to worship God with truth. [see James 1v27]
So if we do not base our worship on truth, then the opposite is what Jesus referred to at John 8v44 to Satan being the father of the lie.
If we prefer lies over truth, facts or reality then aren't we dealing with what is false? According to Rev 12v9 Satan can deceive or mislead the entire earth.
If we practice sin on purpose who are we really worshiping?- Hebrews 10v26

 

[smokydot]

We become spiritually alive when we come to a real knowledge of Scripture.
Sin=Death. If we could stop sinning we would not die.

Are you saying this by way of extension of the Fall?

As you know, the issue is no longer sin, the issue is one's dead-in-sin spirit, which is an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:1,3).

One's spirit must be born again (rebirth--Jn 3:7) into eternal life by
1) faith and trust in Jesus Christ and
2) faith and trust in his sacrifice of atonement for the permanent forgiveness of one's sin (i.e., salvation from the wrath of God--Jn 3:36)
in order that God's wrath not remain on him. (Jn 3:36)

1) faith and trust in Jesus Christ:

Jn 3:14-15 -- ". . .the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

Jn 3:18 -- "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already."

Jn 3:36 -- "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. . ."

2) faith in his sacrifice of atonement for the permanent forgiveness of one's sin (i.e., salvation from the wrath of God--Jn 3:36)

Rom 3:24-25 -- ". . .justified (made right with God by forgiveness of one's sin) freely by Gods grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."

Jesus' sacrifice atones permenently for one's sin only through faith in his sacrifice (blood).

So are you saying that true knowlege of Scripture is faith and trust in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice of atonement for the permanent forgiveness of one's sin (i.e., salvation from the wrath of God)?

If not, you are in serious disagreement with the NT.

Since we can not resurrect oneself or another we need Jesus to do that for us....and he will.

Yes, OT believing people were in 'expectation' of the Messiah coming.
-Luke 3v15.

In our time frame, those favored ones on earth at the time of Jesus 'glory' [Matt 25vs32,40] are living on earth and they can remain alive on earth, or remain living on earth right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth when Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
-Proverbs 2vs21,22; 10v30; Psalm 37vs11,29,38; 92v7

 

[smokydot]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Your question is answered in Rom 8:16:

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children (saved)."

That's called assurance of salvation.

That testimony is strong when one walks in obedience, but it will become weak or non-existent if one continues to walk in disobedience.

However, the experiential loss of the Holy Spirit's testimony does not mean one is not saved,
but there is no more miserable experience for a child of God than being deprived of the Holy Spirit's comfort because of walking in disobedience.
God can definitely bring his wayward child back to obedience.

 

[thedope]

No one knows the hour of his coming because love waits on invitation, not time.

 

[thedope]

God can definitely bring his wayward child back to obedience.

I desire mercy not sacrifice. Mastery through love, not obedient behavior.

We can do a thing and then do another different thing but we can only be what we are.
The child of god has not usurped the power of god, he only dreamed it so after succumbing to deep sleep.

 

[smokydot]

I desire mercy not sacrifice. Mastery through love, not obedient behavior.

It is the obedience of a loving child. . .just as in a good family.
But in a good family, should the child continue in unacceptable behavior, he will experience his father's withdrawal of approval for that behavior.
The more the child loves his father, the more unhappy he will be at losing his father's approval of his behavior.
Dads can definitely bring their loving children back to acceptable behavior.

We can do a thing and then do another different thing but we can only be what we are.
The child of god has not usurped the power of god, he only dreamed it so after succumbing to deep sleep.

That makes me feel a whole lot more like I do now, than I did before.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Are you saying this by way of extension of the Fall?
As you know, the issue is no longer sin, the issue is one's dead-in-sin spirit, which is an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:1,3).
One's spirit must be born again (rebirth--Jn 3:7) into eternal life by
1) faith and trust in Jesus Christ and
2) faith and trust in his sacrifice of atonement for the permanent forgiveness of one's sin (i.e., salvation from the wrath of God--Jn 3:36)
in order that God's wrath not remain on him. (Jn 3:36)
1) faith and trust in Jesus Christ:
Jn 3:14-15 -- ". . .the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
Jn 3:18 -- "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already."
Jn 3:36 -- "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. . ."
2) faith in his sacrifice of atonement for the permanent forgiveness of one's sin (i.e., salvation from the wrath of God--Jn 3:36)
Rom 3:24-25 -- ". . .justified (made right with God by forgiveness of one's sin) freely by Gods grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."
Jesus' sacrifice atones permenently for one's sin only through faith in his sacrifice (blood).
So are you saying that true knowlege of Scripture is faith and trust in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice of atonement for the permanent forgiveness of one's sin (i.e., salvation from the wrath of God)?
If not, you are in serious disagreement with the NT.

Agree: belief, faith and trust, and confidence, in Jesus Christ.
How does one demonstrate belief?
Don't those of Matthew [7 vs22,23] demonstrate their belief?
Yet, were they were Not doing what Jesus said to do.

Except for those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6,
Jesus shed blood cleans from all sin.-1st John 1v7 B.
'All' do not obey Jesus, so that is why Matthew [20v28] says:
Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many' and not all are included.
-Hebrews 10v26