Same Sex Marrige By a Church.

[Autodidact]

or condoned or even where homosexuality is condoned. In context please not a one liner.

agape love is what is referred to: selfless love of one person for another without sexual implications (especially love that is spiritual in nature)

Wait, I thought you just read the words in black and white. Now here you are interpreting like mad.

Do you people think people are stupid or something?

Some people.

 

[Autodidact]

Again I will say this IS THERE A PRECEDENT IN THE BIBLE that can justify marring a homosexual couple! Take the entire new testament in context and you will find there is no way for a church to condone such activity.

No, as Smoke explained to you, there is no precedent in the Bible to justify anyone marrying anyone.

Understand the love that is being spoken of. It is not the same as a husband for a wife. End of sentence there is nothing.

Personal interpretation. I want verses and only verses, in black and white in context no one-liners.

 

[Autodidact]

Put up or shut up. No scripture no point.

O.K., stop being a hypocrite and produce your scripture in favor of your point that the love spoken of is not the same as a marital love.

This is the love spoken of, agape: selfless love of one person for another without sexual implications (especially love that is spiritual in nature)

Stop interpreting! Just scripture in black and white, nothing else.

 

[Autodidact]

For the most part-the Bible has been found to be 99% consistent over a period of about 1600 years,within the context of all the different authors-yes we should expect some differences....different styles,perspectives and audiences all preclude this,however....differences ARE NOT contradictions-there is a plausible and intellectyual answer to all supposed contradictions....if not seen now-will be seen as the Lord see's fit for man to understand.....

Ok if you are looking for the verse"Thou shall not marry the same sex." Nope i havent seen that one but.....as i have seen throughout the Bible homosexuality is labled as an abomination-and as sin and detestable etc...Romans Corinthians etc...so also wherever marriage is mentioned it is between man and woman.
So sorry-no matter what it is considered sinful and wrong...(not my words)
No amount of political correctness will change it.
However....did anyone ever stop to think why it is considered sinful and an abomination?? I think because then you cannott populate the earth...(be fruitful and multiply)

Well you would if i attended church-i dont-but on that note...it only points to different roles prescribed from God....and Paul....it is in accordance to the way mankind entered into the world.....she just cant teach to where she has authority over man...she can still teach.

Not and follow the Bible she can't. She has to keep silent in church.

 

[Autodidact]

FOR THE LAST TIME YOU BUNCH OF PEOPLE HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT BIBLICAL THEREFORE SAME SEX MARRIAGE IS ALSO NOT TOLERABLE.

Why should I follow your personal interpretation? Are you some kind of expert?

How many times must I show this? You are blind.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Wow, you're such a liar. You said you wouldn't include the Old Testament, and here it is. The only way you can include this and be consistent and actually follow the actual Bible, as you say you do, is to follow all of it. No BLT's, no shrimp po'boys, and no cotton polyester clothing. Is that what you think Christianity is about?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

1. Many scholars think the translation is wrong, and it should say something more like "effete young men.
2. Right. Homosexual offenders won't inherit. Not homosexuals, homosexual offenders. Neither will heterosexual offenders. Equating homosexual offenders with homosexuals is your personal screwed up interpretation--the thing you say not to do.

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

So you're interpreting this as a prohibition against homosexuality? Because that is clearly not what is meant here. You really like to impose your interpretation on the Bible, don't you?

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

Are you saying that rape is a good thing? Because that's what that verse says--in black and white.

btw, did you ever see what Jesus thinks the sin of Sodom is? Look it up and get back to me.

Now this is clear and concise. Not a thing added nothing taken away. You can call it BS with your PseudoQuasiLogic but there is nothing as direct (or indirect for that matter) as this anywhere that will condone Homosexuality and therefore since homosexuality is condemned same sex marriage is also condemned.

Well it certainly doesn't condemn it.

Nothing in the Bible anywhere condones it NOTHING.

Unless you really were a Christian. Then you'd be in favor of love. You seem to be against it. Weird interpretation.

For those who may have missed the point, I am only saying a Christian church can not by following it's own doctrine marry a same sex couple.

Why should all the Christian churches in the word follow your odd interpretation of the Bible, that misses the whole point? It's not about bacon, prostitution or the sabbath; it's about love. If you missed this obvious point, you might want to re-read it with a little more emphasis on what Jesus took the trouble to say. Just a suggestion.

Now can anyone present a clear retort to this? NO it is not there.

None so blind as he who will not see.

Points of opinion are fine and dandy but there is nothing that can be presented that is from the Bible to counter what is in this post.

Well then stop giving us your opinion and stick to Bible verses. Not your interpretation of them, the actual verses. So far you've given us nothing even prohibiting homosexuality, let alone same-sex marriage.

 

[Autodidact]

First off I quoted all of that so it would be in context not to bring up the divorce issue.

Honestly I really have issues with the way many treat marriage and I am rather radical in my views. So if you really want to beat me down I will tell you.

There is no room for divorce in marriage other than infidelity. I do disagree with it because too many times I have seen it taken lightly and rushed into only to end badly. I have had divorces effect my children and the ones who were married never knew each other (internet got them together internet separated them).

And any church that performs them is not following the Bible and not a true Christian Church, correct?

OK! the big problem. Same sex marriage cannot be addressed in the Bible as it condemns same sex relations.

NO, it doesn't. In particular, it does not prohibit lesbianism. It is not at all clear what it says about male-male sex, and it does not condemn homosexual relationships at all.

I have quoted it before and I can quote it again.

We read your verses. The problem isn't the verses, it's your interpretation.

You will not find anything about the same sex relationship in the Bible other than it is wrong in the eyes of God,[FONT=arial, helvetica] Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."[/FONT]

Do you follow these purity codes in Leviticus or are you a total hypocrite?

Paul also spoke on this subject so if this is not enough then find something to the contrary, as direct as this countering it. HINT: you wont. it ain't there.

Paul never spoke a word about same-sex love. He does seem to have spoken against people having unnatural sex. For gay people, straight sex is unnatural. That is clearly disapproved of.

If two people of the same sex want to marry who cares, just don't claim it is Biblical (other than the love and commitment).

And after all, Jesus never talked about or cared about love, so what does that matter?

 

[Autodidact]

There have been many views expressed that are for same sex marriage, NONE ARE BIBLICAL.

Just your personal opinion. I think we should follow the Bible, not Archer.

 

[Autodidact]

Mathew 19:3-9

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Definition: voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

Note this also as to who Jesus spoke in the case of marriage man and woman as it was in the beginning. Not 2 people but a man and a woman!

Now if you don't mind please do not accuse me of being un-Biblical.

Sounds to me like Jesus is in favor of people who want to have sex marrying each other. Seems like a verse that favors same-sex marriage to me.

 

[Autodidact]

Even your definition covers adultery.

I will go further.the 1990 edition of the dictionary of word origins ISBN 1-55970-133-1
Fornication Latin fornix denoted an 'arch' or 'vault' and hence came to be used in the late republican period vaulted underground dwellings where the dregs of roman society - tramps, prostitutes, petty criminals, etc - lived. Early Christian writers home in on the prostitutes, and employed the term with the specific meaning 'brothel', whence the verb fornicari 'have elicit sexual intercorse' and it's derivitive fornicatio, source of English fornication.

The New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words ISBN 0-7852-4676-2:

page 103 under Fornication
zanah, to commit adultery
taznuwth, harlotry
ekporneuo, to fornicate
porneia, sexual immorality
porneuo, to indulge unlawful lust

Any questions? these definitions are what was being spoken about as they are from the original languages and from that time frame.

I wish for you to stop making yourself look like a fool

Nothing about homosexuality in there. FAIL.

 

[Autodidact]

Even your definition covers adultery.

I will go further.the 1990 edition of the dictionary of word origins ISBN 1-55970-133-1
Fornication Latin fornix denoted an 'arch' or 'vault' and hence came to be used in the late republican period vaulted underground dwellings where the dregs of roman society - tramps, prostitutes, petty criminals, etc - lived. Early Christian writers home in on the prostitutes, and employed the term with the specific meaning 'brothel', whence the verb fornicari 'have elicit sexual intercorse' and it's derivitive fornicatio, source of English fornication.

The New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words ISBN 0-7852-4676-2:

page 103 under Fornication
zanah, to commit adultery
taznuwth, harlotry
ekporneuo, to fornicate
porneia, sexual immorality
porneuo, to indulge unlawful lust

Any questions? these definitions are what was being spoken about as they are from the original languages and from that time frame.

I wish for you to stop making yourself look like a fool

For context:
“The Greek word for ‘fornication’ (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. …In Biblical usage, ‘fornication’ can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Moses (Leviticus 20:10-21). Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting (Matthew 5:28).” (Dr. Henry M. Morris)

John 18:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Cor. 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Cor 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Cor 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Cor 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

2 Cor 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

1 Thess 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20-21 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 17:2,4 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Now I did not put these biblical references with their surrounding text (too much space) but it is referenced and if you care to take a read you will find I am not incorrect in defining fornication as a sexual act in the original post that I was criticized about.

Wow, lots of prohibitions against heterosexual behavior there. It sounds like heterosexuality in unbiblical.

 

[Autodidact]

The new testament though taking many things and making them akkowable still speaks agains homosexuality and therfpre against same sex marriage. You have presented the closest thing to a legitimate argument thus far.

But it doesn't. Unless you impose your interpretation on it. Jesus never mentions it. Paul tells a story about God punishing people. And Paul has a problem with a certain type of effete Roman man. He also seems not to like people having sex which is not natural for them. That's it. No prohibition against homosexuality. And certainly not even a plausible argument for a prohibition against lesbianism. Lots of issues with those darned heterosexuals and their lust and fornication though. They should probably stop performing heterosexual marriages. I believe Paul advocated that as well, didn't he?

 

[Charity]

But it doesn't. Unless you impose your interpretation on it. Jesus never mentions it. Paul tells a story about God punishing people. And Paul has a problem with a certain type of effete Roman man. He also seems not to like people having sex which is not natural for them. That's it. No prohibition against homosexuality. And certainly not even a plausible argument for a prohibition against lesbianism. Lots of issues with those darned heterosexuals and their lust and fornication though. They should probably stop performing heterosexual marriages. I believe Paul advocated that as well, didn't he?

If Paul had his way a woman would never say a word....His ideal woman would have been a deaf mute......

 

[Sunstone]

If Paul had his way a woman would never say a word....His ideal woman would have been a deaf mute......

Paul spoke eloquently and movingly of love. But it must have been love for men, because he sure didn't want women in his life.

 

[Archer]

Your promises seem to be as trustworthy as your biblical interpretations.

If someone can show me I will never post again, keep it in context.

 

[Archer]

@ Autodidact I am not going to respond in kind as you have done just as the haters. In context every one of my posts has addressed the issues of the moment. You seem to be trying to make a mockery of my faith but you are only fueling the fires.

If you take every one of those quotes and put them in the context that they were originally made you will see that you are grasping at straws.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/members/autodidact-12991.html

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

you can not find John 8:7 in the oldest manuscripts

such as codex senaiticus,greek,Vatican,alexandrian,aphraim

papery 66 ، 75 ، 45 (oldest paperies for John.)


the story is not reliable

 

[Archer]

Nothing about homosexuality in there. FAIL.

If you would care to put that in context you will see that it was only addressing the surrounding post, which related to the topic of the thread, but had nothing to do directly with homosexuality.

Can anyone show me doctrine (not interpretations and scholarly opinion) that allow a Christian church (bases off of the Bible) to marry a same sex couple?

This is not about opinion it is about scripture only.

Above is the OP, we were covering fornication which is related to the topic.

So since you have taken everything you have responded to out of context, you can't say that I have failed can you? What you have done is attempt to twist things around to prove your own points, you would be better to use the Bible and twist that, it cant directly retort anything you say, I can.

 

[Archer]

@ storm, I was in group session and saw where I have been a little more harsh than should be. Though my intent was to respond in kind it was unnecessary and hurts my witness, please accept my sincere apologies (I was not put up to this I just felt I need do it).

 

[Autodidact]

@ autodidact i am not going to respond in kind as you have done just as the haters. In context every one of my posts has addressed the issues of the moment. You seem to be trying to make a mockery of my faith but you are only fueling the fires.

If you take every one of those quotes and put them in the context that they were originally made you will see that you are grasping at straws.

fail.

 

[Archer]

Can anyone show me doctrine (not interpretations and scholarly opinion) that allow a Christian church (bases off of the Bible) to marry a same sex couple?

This is not about opinion it is about scripture only.

fail.

Seems to me no failure, however you are welcome to feel that way!

I just have some questions. What do you mean by fail? I have backed up everything I have said with scripture, yet you challenge me for more? Do you have a counterpoint that has not been covered pertaining to the topic of this thread? Do you even care?