Satan's Claws (Santa Claus): Satanic Deception

[Bishka]

Provide a link to the original talk and what setting it was given in, for example conference, Ensign, Friend, etc.

Never mind I found: The Spirit of Christmas

I'll read it over later today and respond.

Waiting on your response....

Look #312

 

[Sola'lor]

We don't we just create a real Santa Claus? We could get a large number of fat old men with white beards to be the Santa Clauses. Parents and charitable organizations could send us those things they want for Christmas along with a payment and then we would have the various Santa Clauses deliver the gifts. The Santas could even be based on the traditions of the nations where the deliveries will be. It would be just like a fancy FedEx. Then Santa Cluas is real. Parent aren't lying to kids. Win win.

Of course the flying reighndeer thing would present a bit of a problem.

 

[FFH]

The Spirit of Christmas

I'll read it over and respond.

Uh, that's an article from the New Era, it's not a conference talk, therefore not doctrinally binding in any way, as if the Santa myth was even a doctrine of our church either way.

It's as simple as examining the traditions perpetuated by this fictional story.

Santa is portrayed as some sort of God, who can see all, knows all and can do all.

That's enough for me to never relate this story to my kids, even if it is fictional, it's dangerous territory to be tredding on,

I won't ever have kids in this life, but was promised I would eventually, and that they would be raised up in "light and truth," and not upon the lies of this world the way it's set up now.

 

[Bishka]

Uh, that's an article from the New Era, it's not a conference talk, therefore not doctrinally binding in any way, as if Santa was even a doctrine of our church either way. .

Hate to tell you this, but conference talks are not doctrinally binding either.

Now, will you stop ignoring my question and answer it!?!

 

[DeepShadow]

Uh, that's an article from the New Era, it's not a conference talk, therefore not doctrinally binding in any way, as if Santa was even a doctrine of our church either way.

Never said it was. The point is that the "truth" that has been revealed to you had obviously not been revealed to our church leaders. We are commanded (Alma 12:9, which you still have not explained to me) to keep silent on truths that have not been revealed to church leaders.

You are not waiting for our leaders to share these things with us in the proper order of things

I feel one spirit when I read President Monson's talk, and another spirit when I read your posts. Which one should I listen to?

From D&C 43

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.
3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.
4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.
5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;
6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

 

[FFH]

I'll respond to Deepshadow's and Becky's last posts by posting this scripture, which suggest we need to think for ourselves, the Lord's not going to spell everything out for us, he want's us to use our own minds, by praying, pondering and reading inspired scripture.

Doctrine and Covenants 58: 26
For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Examine the Santa myth and see if it does not violate the Lord's commandments given to us in scripture.

"Thou shalt have no other God's before me" (ficional or otherwise)

It's silly to think we need a seperate revelation from the Lord through our current leaders concerning Santa.

We have minds of our own, we can figure it out by reading inspired scripture.

I don't need any Bible code to spell it out for me, it's just an interesting side note.

God has given us details through the Bible codes though.

Neither our leaders nor any other religious leaders need to approve or disapprove of the Bible codes, we have minds of our own, we can pray about it ourselves.

The Lord will not "command in all things".

We can pray, ponder and read scripture ourselves to find out the truth of all things.

 

[FFH]

The point is that the "truth" that has been revealed to you had obviously not been revealed to our church leaders.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness," for any reason.

We are commanded (Alma 12:9, which you still have not explained to me) to keep silent on truths that have not been revealed to church leaders.

All LDS church leaders, both past and present, would agree with me that it's not okay to lie to kids in any situation, we don't need a seperate revelation for that.

No wonder we have so much trouble with kids being molested, they're used to being lied to, they have an unhealthy trust in adults.

Lie to a kid, give them a treat, physical molestors do the same. The Santa myth, taught as truth, is no different.

Lying to kids about Santa spiritually molests innocent kids minds, it's sick and disgusting. It makes them dopey/stupid spiritually.

Tell them about Jesus Christ and what he can do for them if they're "good" and drop the Santa thing so your kids will develope properly, both mentally and spiritually.

 

[DeepShadow]

"Thou shalt not bear false witness," for any reason. All LDS church leaders, both past and present, would agree with me that it's not okay to lie to kids in any situation, we don't need a seperate revelation for that.

I notice that the "for any reason" is your own addition. Are you saying that if a friend was having a surprise party, you'd tell him it was going on? That if someone came into your pizza parlor with a bloody knife and demanded to know where your boss was, you would feel that a lie was sinful?

The very scripture that you offer against us says that we are to use our best judgement. We're told not to kill, either, but obviously the Lord allows for exceptions there, too. Or are soldiers breaking that commandment in battle? Should we all be like the People of Ammon an never fight, even in self-defense?

 

[Sola'lor]

I love reading these topics with FFH more than I enjoy replying to them.

 

[DeepShadow]

In a talk to a BYU audience in 1971, President Kimball, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, said that the Savior’s statement that Peter would deny him three times before the **** crowed just might have been a request to Peter, not a prediction. Jesus just might have been instructing his chief apostle to deny any association with him in order to insure strong leadership for the Church after the crucifixion. As President Kimball asked, who could doubt Peter’s willingness to stand up and be counted when you think of his boldness in striking off the ear of the guard with his sword when the Savior was arrested in Gethsemane. President Kimball did not offer this view as the only interpretation, but he did suggest there is enough justification for it that it should be considered.

So apparently a prophet (Kimball) didn't have a problem with the idea that Jesus might have told Peter to lie.

 

[DeepShadow]

BTW, you missed my question above, FFH, so I'll post it again:
I feel one spirit when I read President Monson's talk, and another spirit when I read your posts. Which one should I listen to?

 

[DeepShadow]

I'll respond to Deepshadow's and Becky's last posts by posting this scripture, which suggest we need to think for ourselves, the Lord's not going to spell everything out for us, he want's us to use our own minds, by praying, pondering and reading inspired scripture.

Where here have I EVER argued otherwise?!

What I have argued here is that the things the Lord revealed to us personally are not to be forced on others. Personal revelation is personal. I feel the Spirit move in me all the time during conference talks, but if the Spirit tells me during a Word of Wisdom talk that eating meat is wrong, I'm not supposed to get up in testimony meeting and tell everyone they should all stop eating meat. I'm supposed to apply it to my life, and if the Lord wants to share it with the whole church, it will come through the prophet.

I'm happy that you are receiving personal revelation, FFH, but you are in no position to force it on others.

 

[Bishka]

I'll respond to Deepshadow's and Becky's last posts by posting this scripture, which suggest we need to think for ourselves, the Lord's not going to spell everything out for us, he want's us to use our own minds, by praying, pondering and reading inspired scripture.

Doctrine and Covenants 58: 26
For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Examine the Santa myth and see if it does not violate the Lord's commandments given to us in scripture.

"Thou shalt have no other God's before me" (ficional or otherwise)

It's silly to think we need a seperate revelation from the Lord through our current leaders concerning Santa.

We have minds of our own, we can figure it out by reading inspired scripture.

I don't need any Bible code to spell it out for me, it's just an interesting side note.

God has given us details through the Bible codes though.

Neither our leaders nor any other religious leaders need to approve or disapprove of the Bible codes, we have minds of our own, we can pray about it ourselves.

The Lord will not "command in all things".

We can pray, ponder and read scripture ourselves to find out the truth of all things.

Nice try, but that didn't answer my question.

Try again.

Does our leaders telling their children about Santa Claus count as mental abuse (as you put it)?

 

[FFH]

I'm happy that you are receiving personal revelation, FFH, but you are in no position to force it on others.

I could care less what you or anyone else on this forum does with their personal lives.

What you or anyone else does on this forum is not going to have any bearing on my salvation and exaltation.

Only sharing what I know to be true, that's all.

Take it or leave it.

I'll say it again, if you present the Santa story as truth, you are flat out lying to your kids, which is against one of the ten basic commandments clearly laid out before us. No need for a personal revelation to spell that out for us.

There's no fudging around that commandment in this situation.

As far as the situation where Nephi was commanded to lie (deceive Laban) and kill Laban, that was a personal revelation and a commandment given to Nephi in that particular situation. Nephi was justified in what he did, because he was "commanded of the Lord to slay Laban" and pretend he was Laban's guard.

No where in scripture or in personal revelations given to the church are we commanded to lie to our kids about Santa.

 

[FFH]

Nice try, but that didn't answer my question.

Try again.

Does our leaders telling their children about Santa Claus count as mental abuse (as you put it)?

Show me any link to any talk, where any past or present church leader has expressed that they have taught the Santa story as truth, to their kids, and then acted this lie (that Santa is real) to it's full extent.

Any talk by any church leader.

 

[FFH]

"Thou shalt not bear false witness," for any reason.

unless commanded otherwise, as was the case with Nephi and Laban, when Nephi pretended to be Laban's guard.

I doubt anyone has had a personal revelation from the Lord commanding them to lie to their kids about Santa.

 

[tomspug]

Wow. Guess what? Every fictional story ever written was a lie. Does that make every fictional author a liar? I guess that applies to painters too, since they paint an apple that is not really an apple. Poems too. Actually, all art is sinful. Yeah, that's right.

The Chronicles of Narnia? Actually, a work of Satan. He wants you to think that Aslan is Jesus! Don't believe him!

 

[tomspug]

Thou shalt not bear false witness, for any reason.

I sure hope none of our POWs are LDS then.

 

[DeepShadow]

unless commanded otherwise, as was the case with Nephi and Laban, when Nephi pretended to be Laban's guard.

I doubt anyone has had a personal revelation from the Lord commanding them to lie to their kids about Santa.

And now we're back to square one--begging the original question.

Because if Santa is actually a force for good, I can most certainly get such a revelation. I believe I have. Just like I've consulted with the Spirit before telling someone a lie about their surprise party. I've consulted with the Spirit before telling someone they hadn't hurt my feelings, when they had--the Spirit said it would be better to patch things up later, which I did.

If Santa is a force for good, the Spirit can certainly tell you to bring that force into your home, even if that means telling a lie.

Of course, this is even assuming that all falsehoods are lies, which is a very Western concept.

 

[FFH]

Wow. Guess what? Every fictional story ever written was a lie. Does that make every fictional author a liar? I guess that applies to painters too, since they paint an apple that is not really an apple. Poems too. Actually, all art is sinful. Yeah, that's right.

The Chronicles of Narnia? Actually, a work of Satan. He wants you to think that Aslan is Jesus! Don't believe him!

You're not reading my posts, just scanning them.

Fictional stories told as fictional stories is in no way lying, but fictional stories related to kids as fact/truth is flat out lying and breaks one of the basic ten commandments.

Also many fictional stories are better left untold, even if the hearer/reader knows it's just fiction.

Santa, Harry Potter, Star Wars etc., all fit into this catagory, these all glorify things like levitation, magic, etc.

Chronicles of Narnia does not violate any commandments and the reader is very much aware of the symbolism. No lion could ever be a God or Jesus Christ, all kids know this instinctively and when reading or viewing the story they are very much aware that it's fictional, whereas the Santa fable is told as truth to kids.

Kids aren't stupid, they're very bright and catch on quickly, a lot faster than adults who have been pre-programmed to think a certain way. It's much harder for an adult to change his thought patterns and beliefs.

Mold kids while they are young into the type of adults they should be and the likelihood of them veering off the correct path shown to them is very slim.