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Satan's Claws (Santa Claus): Satanic Deception

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
That's wonderful! I respect your right and responsibility to choose for your family.

Do you think your choice is right for everyone?

We are of the opinion that it is the right choice not to tell a deliberate lie to a child especially when you know it is setting them up for a future disapointment, my wife and I did not want to have to look at him one day when he realises that Santa is not real and did not reward him with gifts and see the hurt our lie had caused him. It just straight away seemed to go against our consciences to do this, against our profession of Christianity even.
He knows that other children do believe in santa and knows he should not be the one to spoil it for them.
 
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DeepShadow

White Crow
He knows that other children do believe in santa and knows he should not be the one to spoil it for them.

Seems like a fair way to handle things--believe and let believe.

If someday I'm spiritually convicted that Santa is evil, I'll remember fondly that you were patient with me and others.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
No, you just go over their heads and preach your own personal revelation over their counsel.

Personal revelation is supposed to be personal. If the Lord wanted everyone to know this, He'd tell it through the prophet.

I respect your right to personal revelation, FFH. Why won't you respect mine?
It's not about personal revelation, it's about not lying to kids, period, for any reason, however justified the reason may seem.

Niether you nor I need a personal revelation to know this is against one of the very basic ten commandments (bearing false witness).

No rocket science deduction there, so you can drop the whole personal revelation thing, it's not about a personal revelation you or I have had, it's about bearing false witness to innocent children, who know no better than to believe every word their parents and other adults say, this is a form of mental child abuse. It's disgusting..
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
You still fail to understand that the scriptures don't share your either-ore fallacy when it comes to lying. By your definition, Jesus was lying in his parables when he presented them as real rather than hypothetical.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
this is a form of mental child abuse. It's disgusting..

Telling them about Santa Claus? :eek:

Then President Hinckley, President Monson and others have mentally abused their children. Isn't that right (according to your definition and posts).
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
In one of my previous posts, FFH, I quoted Thomas S. Monson saying that a little girl excited about Santa Claus had the spirit of Christmas. Do you disagree, FFH?
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Seems like a fair way to handle things--believe and let believe.

If someday I'm spiritually convicted that Santa is evil, I'll remember fondly that you were patient with me and others.

It's not that Santa is evil though is it? The dilema for us is the lie that he represents, I really think it would badly affect my prayer life until it was put right. As soon as the dilemma was put before me when I gave telling my son that santa was real a few seconds thought I was immediatly convicted inside, that horrible feeling and I just knew.
I don't teach my son that santa is evil, it's a nice fairytale on a par with the gingerbread man, I don't think it would be healthy to teach him that a friendly old man who gives children presents is evil, but I do teach him that lying is.
 

Smoke

Done here.
It's not about personal revelation, it's about not lying to kids, period, for any reason, however justified it may seem.
Well, all this stuff about Satan's Claws apart, I agree with you there. I don't see anything sweet or charming about teaching children to believe in a mythical figure who keeps an eye on them at all times and magically rewards them for their good deeds. Of course, Santa's not the only such figure we teach them to believe in ...

Maybe I'm missing something, though. Some folks seem to look back with nostalgia on the time when they believed in Santa, and I never believed in him, so I can't identify with that.
 

Smoke

Done here.
You still fail to understand that the scriptures don't share your either-ore fallacy when it comes to lying. By your definition, Jesus was lying in his parables when he presented them as real rather than hypothetical.
It's not lying if your hearers know they're parables. Santa isn't presented as a parable or a fairy tale, but as a real person.

It boggles my mind that children in this day and age still believe in Santa, but the girl at the sandwich shop was telling me the other day that she believed in Santa till she was fifteen years old. :eek:
 
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FFH

Veteran Member
You still fail to understand that the scriptures don't share your either-ore fallacy when it comes to lying. By your definition, Jesus was lying in his parables when he presented them as real rather than hypothetical.
You've just "born false witness." by twisting my position to justify your position and quiet your own conscience (Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit) which whispers to every man the truths of all things.

The Spirit of God whispers to every mind eternal truths and principles.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
There's a huge obvious difference between a parable (in which all who are listening know the story being told is fictional, to illustrate a certain principle, truth or teaching), and just flat out lying to innocent kids and telling them a fictional story about a man who knows when you've been bad or good, and passing it off as truth.

One is lying the other is not.

Give me a break, I'm disappointed in you Deepshadow, I thought you were more observant than that. It seems your mind is clouded in some areas. You're smarter than that, really, I do respect you, but I won't back down on my position just to conform to this world's evil traditions, no matter how cutsie they may be.

Why LDS members buy into this stuff when they know better is beyond me.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
There's a huge obvious difference between a parable, in which all who are listening know the story being told is only being related to the listener to illustrate a certain principle, truth or teaching; and just flat our lying to innocent kids and telling them a fictional story about a man who knows when you've been bad or good, and passing it off as truth.

One is lying the other is not.

Give me a break, I'm disappointed in you Deepshadow, I thought you were more observant than that. It seems your mind is clouded in some areas. You're smarter than that, really, I do respect you, but won't back down on my position just to conform to this world's evil traditions, no matter how cutsie they may be.

Why LDS members buy into this stuff when they know better is beyond me.

Answer my question FFH.

this is a form of mental child abuse. It's disgusting..

Telling them about Santa Claus? :eek:

Then President Hinckley, President Monson and others leaders and thousands of Latter-day Saints have mentally abused their children?
 

blackout

Violet.
It's not lying if your hearers know they're parables. Santa isn't presented as a parable or a fairy tale, but as a real person.

It boggles my mind that children in this day and age still believe in Santa, but the girl at the sandwich shop was telling me the other day that she believed in Santa till she was fifteen years old. :eek:

:banghead3
it's great training for a vapid minded adult population
programmed to believe anything they see/are told by the "authorities" in their lives.
church, govt , media... anything on the nightly news.
(not to mention the education systems that play right along...
instead of encouraging our children how to reason their way
out of a paper bag)

I would be APPALLED if any child of mine past the age
of 7 couldn't REASON or even just INTUIT
the innanity of the whole santa claim.

I just don't get it.:no:
 

blackout

Violet.
but the girl at the sandwich shop was telling me the other day that she believed in Santa till she was fifteen years old.


I'm thinking about this some more.
It really upsets me for the sake of this girl.
What the heck is with her parents and her friends?!

It's like an insulting mockery of a person,
to keep them going like that.
An insult to their experience of life.

lame.
 

Quath

Member
Eating lobster and pork is not good, but it won't keep you out of heaven and neither will wearing mixed fabrics, but homosexuality, lying will keep you out of heaven.
So how do you know that the sin of eating lobster is worse than the sin of homosexuality? It seemed that if Jesus died to change the laws, then all the laws must be dropped. If he only changed some of the laws, how do you know which ones? Is this from the Bible codes?
 

FFH

Veteran Member
So how do you know that the sin of eating lobster is worse than the sin of homosexuality?
Because of the various penalties attached to each particular sin, in the Old Testament, we can know how serious each sin is in God's eyes.

Christ did away with the earthly penalties of breaking the various commandments, but that doesn't mean we won't suffer a similar or even a worse penalty in the next life for breaking these commandments. Guess what, we still will, if we don't turn from our sins in this life. All Christ's sacrifice did was give us a grace period in which to turn from our sins in this life. If we waste this life in sin we will find ourselves in a worse situation in the next life, since we had obviously wasted our "days of probation" in this life living in serious sin, for example.

We must strive to better ourselves or we will find ourselves in an aweful situation in the next life paying for our own sins because we refused to turn from them on our own accord in this life.

Christ died for the world, but the grace of God does not kick in unless we turn from sin. Either we will turn from past sins, at which time Christ's sacrifice will take over and free us of all guilt and penalties attached to those sins, or we will continue in sin and pay each penalty for each unrepented sin in the next life, if not now (for example many experience nearly unbareable agony in this life for serious sins committed).

It seemed that if Jesus died to change the laws,
He died to "fulfill" the law not "change it". Nothing has been changed, the only thing that has changed is we now have a "grace period" in which to repent (turn from our sins) without fear of an earthly penalty, for instance being stoned to death according to Jewish Old Testament law. We are allowed to sin and go free for a time in this life, but if we do not better ourselves then at the end of our lives there will be a penalty upon our deaths, when our bodies will be seperated from our spirits and we will surely experience the same pains and sufferings Christ has endured on our behalf, since we refused to turn from our evil ways and take advantage of Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

He truly has taken the world's sins upon himself, but only the ones the world turns from.

then all the laws must be dropped. If he only changed some of the laws, how do you know which ones? Is this from the Bible codes?
nothings been changed, only "fulfilled," meaning Christ met the demands of justice on our behalf, if we have changed our ways and have started to obey God's commandments.

Christ is extremely merciful and because of his sacrifice all men (except the son's of perdition) will eventually be redeemed from their sins to inherit better worlds than this one, that's the exciting part of Christ's sacrifice, which all men will be partakers of eventually, but many will spend time suffering for their own unrepented sins, the good news is that it won't be for an eternity. There is an end to the suffering of those who did not repent of all their sins in this life.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Answer my question FFH.

Telling them about Santa Claus? :eek:

Then President Hinckley, President Monson and others leaders and thousands of Latter-day Saints have mentally abused their children?

Again, please answer the question posted in the quoted section.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
That's interesting. The following are considered sins according to the Old Testament.

1. Working on Saturday.
2. Not killing homosexuals.
3. Eating lobster.
4. Wearing cotton/polyester.

If you can ignore these sins, why not ignore all the sins?

Some people try to get around this by claiming there is some grey areas to sin. But since you see no grey area, then I am not sure how you reconcile this.

Yes these were sins in the old testement. But these were part of the old law. When Christ came he gave us the new law and many of these old laws that goverened the Jews were done away with.

EDIT: Upon reading the thread I see this has already been brought up. Sorry.
 
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