Should Europe resist Islam?

[Sajdah]

Sadly, Sajdah, justice, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. What you think may be "just" may be cause for me to act against you to preserve my sense of justice. In this way, justice is not the link to peace or security, as it is judgmental.

There is something different in Humans which make them differentiate between the "just", and the "unjust" act...Do you think that I've any right to expell you out of Your home? Is it an act of justice or oppression?! There are constant things which are so clear to everyone...But also there are some who want to distort the truth and to change it to fit their OWN interests and after that they say justice is just like beauty, as an excuse so as not to achieve justice.

 

[Smoke]

In practice, peace and justice are most often incompatible with each other.

I think the idea is that things will be very peaceful once all the dissenters have been killed.

 

[Smoke]

IProblems like racism and religious prejudices, poverty and terrorism...etc. They are all acts of injustice. And I think that they shouldn't be tolerated at all....Correct?!

And sexism and homophobia?

 

[Kathryn]

Sajdah, I am interested in your take on the radical Islamists and the daily terrorist attacks worldwide. What is your response to those events and the ideology behind them? Why do you think terrorist attacks are such an integral part of radical Islam, and are so prevalent, not only against "Westerners" but also against other Muslims, and religions other than Christianity?

As a Muslim, what are you doing to stop the spread of radical Islam? What is your faith community doing?

I know that as a Christian, I am APPALLED when other "Christians" use their faith as a weapon, as an excuse for violence, especially toward innocent people and bystanders. David Koresh comes to my mind immediately - I would hate for people to think that I supported his insane ideology just because, like me, he said he was a Christian.

I am horrified by the intolerance shown throughout Europe during the Inquisition and the Reformation - the papacy, Calvin, Luther, etc - what a bunch of renegades!

But I don't see the same level of violence from contemporary Christians as a whole or in general that I see with so many people who claim to be Muslim. I'm sorry - believe me, I wish it was not so - I wish that the level of violence from the Muslim world was isolated, rare - non existant, even. But the sad truth is that it's not - and it's spreading.

We have to deal with it. From your peaceful Muslim perspective - how does your faith community work toward defusing this violence?

 

[dogsgod]

Sajdah, I am interested in your take on the radical Islamists and the daily terrorist attacks worldwide. What is your response to those events and the ideology behind them? Why do you think terrorist attacks are such an integral part of radical Islam, and are so prevalent, not only against "Westerners" but also against other Muslims, and religions other than Christianity?

As a Muslim, what are you doing to stop the spread of radical Islam? What is your faith community doing?

I know that as a Christian, I am APPALLED when other "Christians" use their faith as a weapon, as an excuse for violence, especially toward innocent people and bystanders. David Koresh comes to my mind immediately - I would hate for people to think that I supported his insane ideology just because, like me, he said he was a Christian.

I am horrified by the intolerance shown throughout Europe during the Inquisition and the Reformation - the papacy, Calvin, Luther, etc - what a bunch of renegades!

But I don't see the same level of violence from contemporary Christians as a whole or in general that I see with so many people who claim to be Muslim. I'm sorry - believe me, I wish it was not so - I wish that the level of violence from the Muslim world was isolated, rare - non existant, even. But the sad truth is that it's not - and it's spreading.

We have to deal with it. From your peaceful Muslim perspective - how does your faith community work toward defusing this violence?

You demonize Islam in order to justify the killing taking place in Iraq and Afghanistan by Christian dominated armies invading and occupying these lands. Expect more resistance from Arabs as long as US foreign policy is maintained as it is, it comes with the territory.

 

[.lava]

Sadly, Sajdah, justice, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

WOW...so your beauty begins not where my beauty ends...




.

 

[England my lionheart]

You demonize Islam in order to justify the killing taking place in Iraq and Afghanistan by Christian dominated armies invading and occupying these lands. Expect more resistance from Arabs as long as US foreign policy is maintained as it is, it comes with the territory.

Does that include the killing by anyone?

 

[andys]

Kathryn,
You do not argue my point, namely, that given the power to assert its dogma, your so-called "tolerant" Church murdered as many "heretics" as it could lay its murdering hands on. Instead, you take great pains to tally up the precise number of victims that the Church' slaughtered in its zeal. Thank you for settling this matter for us. Incredible.

Incidentally, the first medieval inquisition, the Episcopal Inquisition, was established in 1184 and the end of the Inquisition occurred on July 15, 1834, by a Royal Decree signed by regent Maria Cristina de Borbon. That's 7 centuries of tyranny, not 4, as you state—not that a few hundred lives or a few hundred years, one way or the other, really makes a difference.

 

[YmirGF]

WOW...so your beauty begins not where my beauty ends...




.

In some ways, yes. There are things you would think are beautiful where there are other things I would think are beautiful. Logically, there would be some areas we agreed on. In my view, Justice is a similar thing.

 

[.lava]

In some ways, yes. There are things you would think are beautiful where there are other things I would think are beautiful. Logically, there would be some areas we agreed on. In my view, Justice is a similar thing.

though we are both human and our basic needs are the same. what i want to have in my life is pretty much same with yours, YmirGF. only if we get into details differencies appear. they are personal choices and there is diversity but basics are the same.




.

 

[Kathryn]

You demonize Islam in order to justify the killing taking place in Iraq and Afghanistan by Christian dominated armies invading and occupying these lands. Expect more resistance from Arabs as long as US foreign policy is maintained as it is, it comes with the territory.

I'm not demonizing anyone - they're doing just fine doing that to themselves.

How can you explain Muslim on Muslim violence in so many places in this world - and violence against Buddhists, school teachers, shoppers in market places (with few if any "foreigners" around), etc.? Do you really think that this violence is somehow "the West's" fault?

And finally - "Christian dominated armies?" Please, give me a break. Though I assure you that I believe radical Muslims consider Jihad a Holy War against the infidels (their words, not mine), I can also assure you that the average US soldier is not fighting Muslims because he/she is a Christian.

I do believe that the West's mistake though is that we refuse to label our part in Middle East conflicts a Holy War - it IS a Holy War, if only because "the other guy" seems to think it is.

And the Middle East conflicts are not solely the West's fault - sheeze, you act as if Muslims were peacable people till the 20th century. Haven't you ever heard of the Ottoman Empire? Muslims were raiding (aka invading) deep into Northern Europe, even as far as Great Britain, till the 17th century!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn,
You do not argue my point, namely, that given the power to assert its dogma, your so-called "tolerant" Church murdered as many "heretics" as it could lay its murdering hands on. Instead, you take great pains to tally up the precise number of victims that the Church' slaughtered in its zeal. Thank you for settling this matter for us. Incredible.

Incidentally, the first medieval inquisition, the Episcopal Inquisition, was established in 1184 and the end of the Inquisition occurred on July 15, 1834, by a Royal Decree signed by regent Maria Cristina de Borbon. That's 7 centuries of tyranny, not 4, as you state—not that a few hundred lives or a few hundred years, one way or the other, really makes a difference.

My point is that all that HORRIBLE violence in the name of Christendom pales in comparison to the violence done in the name of Islam, and atheism for that matter, in the past 100 years. Mangled body for mangled body - Muslims and atheists win hands down.

That being said, my post was clear - I am as horrified by violence and crime at the hands of Christians as much as I am by anyone else - no, even more so. However, the Church's Inquisitions were over a long time ago, and with fewer mounds of bodies than the mounds that radical Islam is stacking up as we speak.

We can only deal with the present and future -we can't change the past.

 

[Metempsychosis]

On paper,christianity seems to be just as intolerant as Islam(both of them have a great deal of violent history),but Christian majority countries are secular,whereas Muslim majority countries are theocracies(excepting ofcourse few countries like Indonesia,Kazakhstan,turkey etc).Thats where the difference lies.

 

[dogsgod]

Hitler was a staunch Christian, he hated the Jews for killing his God, and Stalin was raised as a Christian. The blueprint for Stalin's Communist rule by oppression, fear, and intimidation can be found in The Acts of the Apostles. 4:32 thru 5:11.

 

[dogsgod]

Kathryn, "My point is that all that HORRIBLE violence in the name of Christendom pales in comparison to the violence done in the name of Islam, and atheism for that matter, in the past 100 years. Mangled body for mangled body - Muslims and atheists win hands down."

You are mistaken, Christianity has a far bloodier history than does Islam and western interference has more to do with the instability in the middle east than anything else. The US has a history of overthrowing middle eastern governments and replacing them with puppet regimes. Western foreign policy is dictated by Christian bigotry, Obama is a prime example.

 

[TashaN]

I hope the following would be useful and would add something to this beautiful thread. Beautiful because we are looking for answers, because we are sharing. Regardless of whether this thread went to the side i like or not, i would be happy to sit and just read and think of what our great members have to say about this topic.

I wrote this before in another thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-abrahamic-religions-star-cross-crescent.html

One of the most easily distorted aspects in the discussion of a different faith is the view of the ‘other’. More often than not, it is our pride and self-interest that makes us see others in a negative light. Once this negative perspective becomes our way of thinking, we forget to differentiate between the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ in our treatment of others. In ancient Egypt, the Pharaoh saw the Israelites as the ‘other’ and hence mistreated them. Although the Egyptian civilization had great monuments, sophisticated art and writings and architecture to its credit, its sub-human treatment of the Israelites hangs over it like a dark shadow. The same is true of the ancient civilizations of Greece and Roman Empire which, despite their great achievements, remain at a lower standing due to the mistreatment of others.

As the Roman Empire was on the rise it experienced the coming of Jesus Christ. Once Jesus appeared on the scene he was treated as the ‘other’. His followers, being the ‘other’ as well, after him, were also discriminated against and tortured by the Romans.

In the 4th century, the Roman Emperors embraced Christianity and designated it as the state religion. As Christianity became powerful, both the Jews and the believers of the common Roman religion became the ‘other’. They were punished for their beliefs, tortured and persecuted. Narrating the oppression of Jews by zealot Christians, Abba Eban in his book Heritage: Civilization and the Jews, writes that in 1012 the son of the leading Jewish scholar, Gershom ben Judah (960-1028), “…was forcibly converted to Christianity”. Gershom was no ordinary person; he was revered highly for his scholarship, piety and was popularly called “Rabbenu (Our Rabbi)…” by the larger Jewish community. Abba Eban quotes the tributes paid to Rabbi Gershom by leading Jewish religious scholars in the following words:

“Rabbenu Gershom, may the memory of the righteous and
Holy be for a blessing, who enlightened the eyes of the
exile, and upon whom we all depend and of whom all
Ashkenazi Jewry are the disciples of his disciples…”​

Islam, which was rising in the East, had a different view of the Jews as it accorded a special status to ‘the People of the Book’ (people who believe in the same God and follow their scriptures which are meant to give them divine guidance to the same eternal truth) and hence deserve to be treated with respect, dignity and religious freedom. The followers of Jesus and Moses were given full religious freedom in the Islamic civilization and their faith and religions were respected. Contrast the above suppression of the Jews and their forcible conversion to Christianity with Abba Eban’s comments on the Jewish life and experience in the Islamic world as he says:

“Above everything else, life under Arab rule offered wide scope for creative spiritual energies. How else can we explain the heights of creative energy, of literacy grace and aesthetic perfection exemplified in the eleventh and twelfth centuries by Solomon ibn Gabriol, Moses ibn Ezra, and Judah Halevi, all in Spain; and in Egypt by Moses ben Maimonides or Ramban-who also was born in Spain. In some places in the Arab empire, the Jews reached spiritual heights they had not scaled under Christian rule in diaspora.”

In the great centers of Islamic civilization it was not just religious freedom and social acceptance but also the opportunities to climb the social ladder that were open to Jews, and they were able to reach high positions, serve society and contribute to solving the problems of their own community and civilization. One such example, among many, is the story of Hasdai ibn Shaprut. Caliph Abd–er–Rahman III of Spain (891-961) appointed Hasdai as Physician in his court. Commenting on the power and position enjoyed by Hasdai in Muslim Spain, Abba Eban writes:

“From the standpoint of Jewish history, however, his most far--reaching act was to elevate Hasdai ibn Shaprut, his court physician, to the office of director of the customs department and to role of trusted adviser and emissary. It was Hasdai who conducted the delicate negotiations that led to the conclusion of peace treaties with Leon and Navarre in the late 950s.

Just as Abd-er-Rahman, in placing himself on par with the caliphs of Damascus and Egypt, established Muslim Spain’s political autonomy, so Hasdai ibn Shaprut, as leader of the Jewish community of Muslim Spain, deliberately sought to end his people’s subservience to Babylon. He named rabbi of Cordoba the learned Moses bin Hanokh (B.C. 965), who headed a yeshiva (rabbinical academy) and wrote responsa, so that Spanish Jews would not have to send to Sura and Pumbeditha for answers to halakhic questions. Hasdai befriended poets and supported scholars. A practicing physician, he also patronized the sciences and other learned professions.

 

[.lava]

a
And the Middle East conflicts are not solely the West's fault - sheeze, you act as if Muslims were peacable people till the 20th century. Haven't you ever heard of the Ottoman Empire? Muslims were raiding (aka invading) deep into Northern Europe, even as far as Great Britain, till the 17th century!

seems like Ottomans did not know democracy well enough since they did not establish RAPE ROOMS as American did in Iraq. ohh i know Iraq is in the paaaaaaaasssstttttt. but we can't forget the lessons we learnt even from outside and we are now watching Middle East practicing what they've learnt perfectly. wouldn't it be nice some guys come there and teach your family how to be more free and more civilized and ask your daughter her horoscope in rape rooms? thanks to 20th centuries jewels, we began to learn democracy from the master. look at the times of Saddam, you know he was a dictator and that's why death toll of Muslims were so law back then. now that USA brought them democracy, Iraqis have much better time than Saddam's time. isn't it so lovely?




.

 

[Metempsychosis]

I hope the following would be useful and would add something to this beautiful thread. Beautiful because we are looking for answers, because we are sharing. Regardless of whether this thread went to the side i like or not, i would be happy to sit and just read and think of what our great members have to say about this topic.

I wrote this before in another thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-abrahamic-religions-star-cross-crescent.html

How does it view Idolaters like Buddhist,Hindus,etc.Do you have any provisions for them?

 

[true believer]

The truth is, that there is only one way to inter the Kingdom of God. It is our duty as christians to make this truth known.

 

[Metempsychosis]

The truth is, that there is only one way to inter the Kingdom of God. It is our duty as christians to make this truth known.