Should Europe resist Islam?

[TashaN]

My point is that all that HORRIBLE violence in the name of Christendom pales in comparison to the violence done in the name of Islam, and atheism for that matter, in the past 100 years. Mangled body for mangled body - Muslims and atheists win hands down.

That being said, my post was clear - I am as horrified by violence and crime at the hands of Christians as much as I am by anyone else - no, even more so. However, the Church's Inquisitions were over a long time ago, and with fewer mounds of bodies than the mounds that radical Islam is stacking up as we speak.

We can only deal with the present and future -we can't change the past.

Our present will be the past to our children and grand children. If many Christians turned into active terrorists in the future, would you be happy to see Muslims pointing fingers at your grand children calling them terrorists, or you would like for them to sit down and research history, learn lessons from the past, in order to correct their present and avoid repeating the same mistakes in the future? It's an act of ignorance to rely and be fooled by the present and ignore the bigger picture, history.

I'm sorry, but you are ignoring centuries of oppression at the hand of Christians, and you are asking us to forget the past and think about the present only?

We are not politicians and we are not standing on the table to discuss our countries affairs. We are sharing knowledge, and we are trying to look for the root of the problem. Is there something wrong with Islam itself? if it was so, there would be no churches in Muslim countries today. If there was something wrong with Islam, we would have killed the Jews when your fellow Christians were beheading them by the dozen. If there was something wrong with Islam, there would be no Jews and Christians living in Muslim countries until now. If there was something wrong with Islam, it would have destroyed itself, just like many other great nations. If there was something wrong with Islam, more than 1 billion people "Muslims" would have done more than just few terrorists attacks here and there. Only few hundreds have done all this, what if 1 billion Muslims did the same thing? If there was something wrong with Islam, it would have stopped spreading in Europe and many other countries.

I really hate it when someone act friendly and speak of his Muslim friends in a good way, the way you do, then turn around and say, no offense is intended but sorry, your religion suck, and mine is awesome! That's what you are trying to do here.

If we didn't read and learn about the past, problems will occur again when the chance arise. Sorry, but if there was no separation between the church and the state in the US, no body would dare to live in there.

You need a proof? When the church had some control over the state, believe me, it was so horrible, and thousands, and even millions of people have died in the name of Jesus, that's why there is no one single nation on earth today which is a true Christian *country*. Only the Vatican is.

On the other hand, we can see so many *Muslim* countries today. Many of them are still struggling but they will fix it at the end, but oh, if Christians had the same power they had in the past, we all would be burned, just like what Hitler did to the Jews and the others.

Go and look to all this bloody history of Christianity as a power which controls the country, not as a religion because i don't want to go into that. Look at what happened!!! I bet the same would happen if the US which you are bragging about was a Christian *country*, not a Christian *nation*. The US is pretty cool as a Christian nation, but if it became a Christian "country*, then we are all doomed.

After all these years, if you still couldn't understand why Christians did what they did, then this might happen one day in the future, i assure you, so please, discuss the situation of Islam as you want, but don't ever dare to compare it to your bloody history, because there is no chance in hell to compare what Muslims did, to what Christians did, so don't let me go into that because i'm afraid we might go a bit off-topic.

 

[TashaN]

How does it view Idolaters like Buddhist,Hindus,etc.Do you have any provisions for them?

I put that thread at the Abrahamic DIR as you have noticed. It was talking about the relationship between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, because i was researching this issue and got so many books about it. I still didn't research about the situation of the non-Abrahamic religions followers in depth, but from what i know, it was mainly depending on the treaties with their state. In some states, they enjoyed full rights, but not in others. But they were living amongst the Muslims too.

 

[Kathryn]

Oh yes, Muslims were peaceable people till the West interfered...

Muslim conquests

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Age of the Caliphs Expansion under Muhammad, 622–632/A.H. 1-11 Expansion during the Rashidun Caliphate, 632–661/A.H. 11-40 Expansion during the Umayyad Caliphate, 661–750/A.H. 40-129


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Early Muslim expansion
Byzantine Roman Empire
Syria – Armenia – Egypt – North Africa – Constantinople – Sicily – Southern Italy

Sassanid Persian Empire
Iraq – Persia – Afghanistan – Indus Valley

Khazar Khanate (Caucasus)

Visigothic Kingdom (Hispania)

Frankish Empire (Gaul)

Chinese Tang Empire (Central Asia)



Muslim conquests (632–732), (Arabic: فتح‎, Fataḥ, literally opening,) also referred to as the Islamic conquests or Arab conquests,[1] began after the death of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. He established a new unified political policy in the Arabian Peninsula which under the subsequent Rashidun (The Rightly Guided Caliphs) and Umayyad Caliphates saw a century of rapid expansion of Muslim power.
The grew well beyond the Arabian peninsula in the form of a vast Muslim Empire with an area of influence that stretched from northwest India, across Central Asia, the Middle East, North Africa, southern Italy, and the Iberian Peninsula, to the Pyrenees. Edward Gibbon writes in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:

"Under the last of the Ommiades, the Arabian empire extended two hundred days’ journey from east to west, from the confines of Tartary and India to the shores of the Atlantic Ocean. And if we retrench the sleeve of the robe, as it is styled by their writers, the long and narrow province of march of a caravan. We should vainly seek the indissoluble union and easy obedience that pervaded the government of Augustus and the Antonines; but the progress of Islam diffused over this ample space a general resemblance of manners and opinions. The language and laws of the Qur'an were studied with equal devotion at Samarcand and Seville: the Moor and the Indian embraced as countrymen and brothers in the pilgrimage of Mecca; and the Arabian language was adopted as the popular idiom in all the provinces to the westward of the Tigris."
​

The Muslim conquests brought about the collapse of the Sassanid Empire and a great territorial loss for the Byzantine Empire. The reasons for the Muslim success are hard to reconstruct in hindsight, primarily because only fragmentary sources from the period have survived. Most historians agree that the Sassanid Persian and Byzantine Roman empires were militarily and economically exhausted from decades of fighting one another.
Others suggest that many of the peoples living under the rule of these empires, for example Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria, were dissatisfied and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces, largely because of religious conflict in both empires.[2] In the case of Byzantine Egypt, Palestine and Syria, these lands had only a few years before been reacquired from the Persians, and had not been ruled by the Byzantines for over 25 years.
Fred Donner McGraw, however, suggests that formation of a state in the peninsula and ideological (i.e religious) coherence and mobilization was a primary reason why the Muslim armies in the space of a hundred years were able to establish the largest pre-modern empire until that time. The estimates for the size of the Islamic Caliphate suggest it was more than thirteen million square kilometers (five million square miles), making it larger than all current states except the Russian Federation.[3]

 

[Kathryn]

History
The individual Muslim conquests, together with their beginning and ending dates, are as follows:
[edit] Byzantine–Arab Wars: 634–750

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Main article: Byzantine–Arab Wars
Further information: Khalid ibn al-Walid and 'Amr ibn al-'As
Wars were between the Byzantine Empire and at first the Rashidun and then the Umayyad caliphates and resulted in the conquest of the Greater Syria, Egypt, North Africa and Armenia (Byzantine Armenia and Sassanid Armenia).
Under the Rashidun

• The conquest of Persia, 633
• The conquest of Syria, 637
• The conquest of Armenia, 639
• The conquest of Egypt, 639
• The conquest of North Africa, 652

Under the Umayyads

• The conquest of North Africa, 665
• The second Arab siege of Constantinople 717–718
• The conquest of Tbilisi, 736

Later conquests

• The conquest of southern Italy, 827

Frontier warfare continued in the form of cross border raids between the Ummayyads and the Byzantine Isaurian dynasty allied with the Khazars across Asia Minor. Byzantine naval dominance and Greek fire resulted in a major victory at the Battle of Akroinon (739); one of a series of military failures of the Caliph Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik across the empire that checked the expansion of the Umayyads and hastened their fall.

 

[Kathryn]

Conquest of Persia and Iraq: 633–651
Main article: Muslim conquest of Persia
Further information: Khalid ibn al-Walid
In the reign of Yazdgerd III, the last Sassanid ruler of the Persian Empire, a Muslim army secured the conquest of Persia after their decisive defeats of the Sassanid army at the Battle of Walaja in 633 and Battle of al-Qādisiyyah in 636, but the final military victory didn't come until 642 when the Persian army was destroyed at the Battle of Nahāvand. Then, in 651, Yazdgerd III was murdered at Merv, ending the dynasty. His son Pirooz II escaped through the Pamir Mountains in what is now Tajikistan and arrived in Tang China.
[edit] Conquest of Transoxiana: 662–709

Main articles: Islamic conquest of Afghanistan and Battle of Talas
Further information: Qutaibah bin Muslim and History of Arabs in Afghanistan
Following the First Fitna, the Umayyads resumed the push to capture Sassanid lands and began to move towards the conquest of lands east and north of the plateau towards Greater Khorasan and the Silk Road along Transoxiana. Following the collapse of the Sassanids, these regions had fallen under the sway of local Iranian and Turkic tribes as well as the Tang Dynasty. By 709, however, all of Greater Khorasan and Sogdiana had come under Arab control. By 751, the Arabs had extended their influence further east to the borders of China, leading to the Battle of Talas.
[edit] Conquest of Sindh: 664–712

Main article: Muslim conquest in the Indian subcontinent
Further information: Muhammad bin Qasim
During the period of early Rajput supremacy in north India, during the 7th century, the first Muslim invasions were carried out simultaneously with the expansion towards Central Asia. In 664, forces led by Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah began launching raids from Persia, striking Multan in the southern Punjab in what is today Pakistan.
In 711, an expedition led by Muhammad bin Qasim defeated Raja Dahir at what is now Hyderabad in Sindh and established Umayyad rule by 712.
The west of Indian sub-continent was then divided into many states. And their relation between each other were very weak. Al-Ḥajjāj ibn Yūsuf the ruler of Iraq knew this and waited for the best moment to strike.
During this period some rebels came to Sindh from Arab committing various crimes. But King Dahir gave them shelter in his kingdom. By this Hajjaj got extremely mad.
As Muslim Empire and Dahir's kingdom were contiguous to each other, frequent border clashes took place. As a result relation between the two got worse.
The King of Ceylon, the present Srilanka sent many 8 ships full of gifts for the Calipf Al-Walid and the ruler of present Iraq, Hajjaj. But the pirates plundered the ships at the Debal of Sindh, which is now known as "Karachi". Hajjaj demanded compensation from Dahir. But Dahir denied to take responsibility of the crimes committed by the pirates.
For all these reasons. Hajjaj sent soldiers against Dahir. But first two expeditions failed! Then in 712 C.E. Hajjaj sent the third expedition. The commander-in-chief of this expedition was Muhammad bin Qasim Al-Thaqafi the nephew and son-in-law of Hajjaj.
Qasim subdued the whole of what is modern Pakistan, from Karachi to Kashmir, reaching the borders of Kashmir within three years. After his recall, however, the region devolved into the semi-independent Arab ruled states of Mansura and Multan.
[edit] Conquest of Hispania: 711–718 and Septimania 719–720

Main article: Umayyad conquest of Hispania
Further information: Tariq ibn Ziyad
The conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Septimania commenced when the Moors (mostly Berbers with some Arabs) invaded Visigothic Christian Iberia (modern Spain, Portugal, Gibraltar, Andorra, Septimania) in the year 711.[4] Under their Berber leader, Tariq ibn Ziyad, they landed at Gibraltar on April 30 and worked their way northward.[5] Tariq's forces were joined the next year by those of his superior, Musa bin Nusair. During the eight-year campaign most of the Iberian Peninsula was brought under Islamic rule—save for small areas in the northwest (Asturias) and largely Basque regions in the Pyrenees.
This territory, under the Arab name Al-Andalus, became first an Emirate and then an independent Umayyad Caliphate, the Caliphate of Córdoba, after the overthrowing of the dynasty in Damascus by the Abbasids. When the Caliphate dissolved in 1031, the territory split into small Taifas, and gradually the Christian kingdoms started the Reconquest up to 1492, when Granada, the last kingdom of Al-Andalus fell under the Catholic Monarchs.

 

[Kathryn]

Conquest of the Caucasus: 711–750
Main article: Khazar–Arab Wars
[edit] End of the Umayyad conquests: 718–750

The success of the Bulgarian Empire and the Byzantine Empire in dispelling the second Umayyad siege of Constantinople halted further conquests of Asia Minor in 718. After their success in overrunning the Iberian peninsula, the Umayyads had moved northeast over the Pyrenees where they were defeated in 721 at the Battle of Toulouse and then at the Battle of Covadonga. A second invasion was stopped by the Frank Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732 and then at the Battle of the River Berre checking the Umayyad expansion at Narbonne.
In 738, the Umayyad armies were defeated by the Indian Rajputs at the Battle of Rajasthan, checking the eastern expansion of the empire. In 740, the Berber Revolt weakened Umayyad ability to launch any further expeditions and, after the Abbasid overthrow in 756 at Cordoba, a separate Arab state was established on the Iberian peninsula, even as the Muhallabids were unable to keep Ifriqiya from political fragmentation.
In the east, internal revolts and local dissent led to the downfall of the Umayyad dynasty. The Khariji and Zaidi revolts coupled with mawali dissatisfaction as second class citizens in respect to Arabs created the support base necessary for the Abbasid revolt in 750. The Abbasids were soon involved in numerous Shia revolts and the breakaway of Ifriqiya from the Caliph's authority completely in the case of the Idrisids and Rustamids and nominally under the Aghlabids, under whom Muslim rule was extended temporarily to Sicily and mainland Italy before being overrun by the competing Fatimids.
The Abbasid caliph, even as he competed for authority with the Fatimid Caliph, also had to devolve greater power to the increasing power of regional rulers. This began the process of fragmentation that soon gave rise to numerous local ruling dynasties who would contend for territory with each other and eventually establish kingdoms and empires and push the boundaries of the Muslim world on their own authority, giving rise to Mamluk and Turkic dynasties such as the Seljuks, Khwarezmshahs and the Ayyubids who fought the crusades, as well as the Ghaznavids and Ghorids who conquered India.
In Iberia, Charles Martel's son, Pippin the Younger, retook Narbonne, and his grandson Charlemagne actually established the Marca Hispanica across the Pyrenees in part of what today is Catalonia, reconquering Girona in 785 and Barcelona in 801. This formed a permanent buffer zone against Muslims, with Frankish strongholds in Iberia (the Carolingian Empire Spanish Marches), which became the basis, along with the King of Asturias for the Reconquista, spanning 700 years which after the fall of the Caliphate of Córdoba contested with both the successor taifas as well as the African-based Muslim empires, such as the Almoravids and Almohads, until all of the Muslims were expelled from the Iberian peninsula.
[edit] Conquest of Nubia: 700–1606

After many attempts at military conquest of Nubia failed (see First Battle of Dongola), the Arab commander in Egypt concluded the first in a series of regularly renewed treaties known as AlBaqt (pactum) with the Nubians that governed relations between the two peoples for more than six hundred years.
Islam progressed peacefully in the area through intermarriage and contacts with Arab merchants and settlers over a long period of time after the failure of military conquest. In 1315, a Muslim prince of Nubian royal blood ascended the throne of Dongola as king.
During the 15th century, the Funj, an indigenous people appeared in southern Nubia and established the Kingdom of Sinnar, also known as As-Saltana az-Zarqa (the Blue Sultanate). The kingdom officially converted to Islam in 1523 and by 1606 it had supplanted the old Christian kingdom of Alwa (Alodia) and controlled an area spreading over the northern and central regions of modern day Sudan thereby becoming the first Islamic Kingdom in Sudan. Their kingdom lasted until 1821.

 

[Kathryn]

Incursions into Southern Italy: 831–902
Main article: History of Islam in southern Italy
The Aghlabids rulers of Ifriqiya under the Abbasids, using present day Tunisia as their launching pad conquered Palermo in 831, Messina in 842, Enna in 859, Syracuse in 878, Catania in 900 and the final Byzantine stronghold, the fortress of Taormina, in 902 setting up emirates in the Italian Peninsula. In 846 the Aghlabids sacked Rome.
Berber and Tulunid rebellions quickly led to the rise of the Fatimids taking over Aghlabid territory and Calabria was soon lost to the apanate of Italy. The Kalbid dynasty administered the Emirate of Sicily for the Fatimids by proxy from 948. By 1053 the dynasty died out in a dynastic struggle and interference from the Berber Zirids of Ifriqiya led to its break down into small fiefdoms which were captured by the Italo-Normans by 1091.
[edit] Conquest of Anatolia: 1060–1360

Main article: Byzantine–Seljuk Wars
The Abbasid period saw initial expansion and the capture of Crete (840). The Abbasids soon shifted their attention towards the east. During the later fragmentation of the Abbasid rule and the rise of their Shiite rivals the Fatimids and Buyids, a resurgent Byzantium recaptured Crete and Cilicia in 961, Cyprus in 965, and pushed into the Levant by 975. The Byzantines successfully contested with the Fatimids for influence in the region until the arrival of the Seljuq Turks who first allied with the Abbasids and then ruled as the de facto rulers.
In 1068 Alp Arslan and allied Turkmen tribes recaptured many Abbasid lands and even invaded Byzantine regions, pushing further into eastern and central Anatolia after a major victory at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071. The disintegration of the Seljuk dynasty, the first unified Turkic dynasty, resulted in the rise of subsequent, smaller, rival Turkic kingdoms such as the Danishmends, the Sultanate of Rûm, and various Atabegs who contested the control of the region during the Crusades and incrementally expanded across Anatolia until the rise of the Ottoman Empire.
[edit] Byzantine-Ottoman Wars: 1299–1453

Main article: Byzantine–Ottoman Wars
[edit] Further conquests: 1200–1800

Further information: Ottoman wars in Europe

Ottoman expansion until 1683


In Sub-Saharan Africa, the Sahelian kingdom expanded Muslim territories far from the coast. Muslim traders spread Islam to kingdoms across Zanj along the east African coast, and to Southeast Asia and the sultanates of Southeast Asia such as those of Mataram and Sulu.
After the Mongol Empire destroyed the Abbasid Caliphate, following the Battle of Baghdad (1258), they conquered Muslim lands but soon converted to Islam, beginning an era of Turkic and Mongol expansions of Muslim rule into Eastern Europe under the Golden Horde; across Central Asia under Timur, founder of the Timurid dynasty; and later into the Indian subcontinent under his descendant Babur, founder of the Mughal Empire. Meanwhile in the 17th century, Barbary corsairs were conducting raids into Western and Northern Europe, as far as the islands of Britain and Iceland.[6][7] Eastern Europe suffered a series of Tatar invasions, the goal of which was to loot, pillage and capture slaves into jasyr.[8]
The modern era saw the rise of three powerful Muslim empires: the Ottoman Empire of the Middle East and Europe, the Safavid Empire of Persia and Central Asia, and the Mughal Empire of India; along with their contest and fall to the rise of the colonial powers of Europe.

All posts in this group are from Wikipedia.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Kathyrn,

Are you a religious history major from college days?

Even if the material maybe available on the net; would never been able to put them together like you.

Frubals! [pending, out of stock]

Love & rgds

 

[~Amin~]

Atheists are worse than sub human they are akin to murderers.

Wow so much has been said ssince ive been gone, to chop up my statement
without looking at the text, reminds me of what the media does.

A Muslim is NOT allowed to to make Judgements on anybody even an Atheist,
if i did i would be trying to take on God's Attribute of Judge, which for my position
would be the GREATEST crime, ''And remenber yourself(Amin) before i Bestowed my Grace upon you(when you were misguided) and BEWARE of DISCRIMINATION'' Qur'an.

Muhammad said ''If you call someone a disbeliever then one of them deffinitly is''. This is to warn Muslims that we do not know peoples hearts, if i call you a disbeliever and in you heart you have belief then im a disbeliever, THATS pretty
serious wouldnt you think on my part? and even if i said something wrong, how could you JUDGE all Muslims cause of me?

This is getting of the topic i dont want to upset these guys we can move to the thread on Hell and continue if you like, and further explain what was meant.

 

[TashaN]

History
The individual Muslim conquests, together with their beginning and ending dates, are as follows:

Oh my!

You think i don't know about the Islamic conquest?

I said don't compare Muslim's history with the *WELL KNOWN* bloody history of Christians, period.

 

[Sunstone]

Is it what you meant?!

Of course not.

 

[nameless]

came across some pics - Muslim demonstration in London page 1,2,3

 

[~Amin~]

We are dealing with people,who treat us in a way that is inhumane.Until,the cause is corrected,effect cannot be changed.

''Blessed is He who sent down the CRITERION upon His servant that he may be
to the worlds a warner'' Qur'an 25v1

Since you dont belive in God, there is no such thing as good or evil
isnt that correct? and since this is the case how can you say were
doing wrong, because according to you, anyone can do ANYTHING
and you have no criterion, so to argue is a self contradiction.

 

[~Amin~]

By the way this is for ALL the Atheist's you all contradicting yourself.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

[from the above picture]

TOLERANCE!
Who is being tolerant here in the picture?
The demonstrator or the local administration represented by the policeman?

Who should do what?

Love & rgds

 

[~Amin~]

NO GOOD IS THERE IN MUCH OF THEIR PRIVATE CONVERSATION,
except for those who enjoin CHARITY or that which is RIGHT or
CONCILIATION between PEOPLE. And whoever does that seeking
means to the pleasure of God - then we are going to give them a
great reward. Qur'an 4 v 114

 

[Smoke]

''Blessed is He who sent down the CRITERION upon His servant that he may be
to the worlds a warner'' Qur'an 25v1

Since you dont belive in God, there is no such thing as good or evil
isnt that correct? and since this is the case how can you say were
doing wrong, because according to you, anyone can do ANYTHING
and you have no criterion, so to argue is a self contradiction.

No, it's not correct. We are not all morally stunted barbarians who need a magic book to tell us how to behave or how to tell right from wrong -- and if we did need a book, we would not choose a book that has given rise to the most violent and intolerant religion on earth.

 

[Smoke]

I said don't compare Muslim's history with the *WELL KNOWN* bloody history of Christians, period.

There's blood enough on the hands of both religions.

 

[~Amin~]

There's blood enough on the hands of both religions.

Actualy the most VIOLENT religion is Darwinism, YES isnt their belief
that ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE? from the human level ALL the way to
the ATOMS? is in a constant strugle(JIHAD).

 

[~Amin~]

No, it's not correct. We are not all morally stunted barbarians who need a magic book to tell us how to behave or how to tell right from wrong -- and if we did need a book, we would not choose a book that has given rise to the most violent and intolerant religion on earth.

If you dont beleive in God whats wrong with blood?