Should Europe resist Islam?

[monta]

The Islamic culture is part of Europe worrying about Islamic culture taking over is like worrying about your leg taking over your body, it is just part of us, the sooner we stop frantically trying to draw lines around ourselves and move on to the next stage of human development where all of this ridiculousness is a chagrined head shake about how daft the old timers were, the better.

 

[TashaN]

I'm really enjoying this. :beach: Go on guys. :clap

 

[Metempsychosis]

Is Saudi the standard we wish to emulate?

We are dealing with people,who treat us in a way that is inhumane.Until,the cause is corrected,effect cannot be changed.

I aspire to an open tolerant and inclusive Europe. Intolerance of any religion is incongruent with that.

Your aspiration is noble,but we are dealing with humans here.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Ss,

I would choose the values of the Enlightenment.

And, they are.........?

Love & rgds

 

[Sunstone]

Friend Ss,



And, they are.........?

Love & rgds

Simply put, freedom of speech and person, respect for the due process of law, freedom of conscience and religion, respect for reason and scientific inquiry, representative government, and so forth.

 

[.lava]

We are dealing with people,who treat us in a way that is inhumane.

would you please share your PERSONAL experiences with Muslims that caused you have this opinion?




.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

The individual should choose, not the masses.

 

[gnostic]

As long as my freedom NOT to practice Islam is maintained and as long as religious law isn't adopted, or a non-secular government elected, then I couldn't care less if Islam spreads.

Hear, hear.

I don't mind people worshipping whatever they worship and follow their religion, but I don't like them trying to push religious-political-legal agenda on the rest of population.

A clear separation between state and religion, law and religion, education and religion, must be respected, otherwise they should migrate to a country that has Islam as a state religion that freely interfere within the spheres of politics and laws.

 

[kai]

Hi Kathryn,
When the IRA were murdering away goodo here they were receiving massive amounts of funding from the USA. Should we in Ireland judge the majority of Americans on the basis of those who supported the Provo's? I would suggest not. But what is the difference between judging Americans on the basis of a minority who supported terror and judging Muslims on the basis of a minority who support terror?

we should judge those that supported terror and we should judge the terrorists but there the connection ends. the IRA were a localised phenomena the idealism that motivated the IRA was not worldwide. The IRA lacked the international aspirations of Alqueda. Its support was basically Irish or of Irish decent. and no one is judging Muslims on the basis of Alqueda ( i certainly am not) Its the ideology itself that concerns me. I beleive there is dispensation within Islam to justify violence and we see that on a daily basis. The other fact is Islam is political and its politics are for the ummah everyone else is subordinate.



Tariq Ramadan does not approve of flirting, sex before (or outside) marriage, homosexuality, women’s contraception or divorce. He thinks that Muslim women should submit to their husbands if they are “good” Muslims. He believes that men must be financially responsible for the well-being of their family, and not women. In other words, Tariq Ramadan is opposed to or equivocal about feminism, women’s rights, gay rights and sexual liberation. One should also have strong doubts about his respect of the freedom of speech and thought: in Switzerland he contributed to a campaign against a Voltaire play, and he wants Muslim parents to control the content of State school programs according to “Islamic values”, to give only two examples. But that does not prevent him from constantly using the key words of today’s public relations industry: “respect”, “tolerance”, “communication” and “dialogue” in the manner of a cynical politician.


In 1998 Ramadan wrote a foreword to a collection of fatwas by Yusuf al Qaradawi, published by the European Council of the Fatwa. According to this book, a husband, “has the right to forbid his wife to visit another woman, if he thinks this visit may cause a prejudice to his wife, his children or his marital life”, and a “woman should not take the initiative to talk to men she does not know”. A woman, “should not play with children who are dancing”. And the book goes on with themes like, “Should a Muslim woman use a credit card?” Or, “Should she cut her hair without her husband's authorization?” And this book declares abortion illegal.


http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4004


Tariq Ramadan when confronted with the issue of stoning women for adultery, proposing a moratorium in order to have a debate about it – "debate about whether we should stone women to death". There are some things you don’t debate, and one of those is whether or not to stone women to death.

and as for Shariah – maybe the question boils down to the difference between the universal principles of basic human rights and the religious idea of the eternal and absolute will of God.

 

[Metempsychosis]

would you please share your PERSONAL experiences with Muslims that caused you have this opinion?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/926542-post25.html

Post makes it clear,how athiests will be treated.Is it right call them as murderers?

And the same guy,wants an entire continent to change to his religion.

Few days back,muslims justified banning churches in Saudi Arabia.Is this 'moderate' Islam?

 

[NewAgeOfReason]

Of course it is totally unacceptable to declare Europe a christian continent that will not accommodate any other faith.Plus why Christianity of all religions?Remember Islam liberated Europe from darkness-- Andalusia.

 

[kai]

Of course it is totally unacceptable to declare Europe a christian continent that will not accommodate any other faith.Plus why Christianity of all religions?

Remember Islam liberated Europe from darkness-- Andalusia.

who has declared Europe a Christian continent? and funny how all Islamic invasions are either peaceful or "liberations" and everyone else's are not.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Of course it is totally unacceptable to declare Europe a christian continent that will not accommodate any other faith.Plus why Christianity of all religions?Remember Islam liberated Europe from darkness-- Andalusia.

Yes,religion(CHristianity,Islam,etc) should be completed seperated from state.

 

[sandandfoam]

Tariq Ramadan does not approve of flirting, sex before (or outside) marriage, homosexuality, women’s contraception or divorce. He thinks that Muslim women should submit to their husbands if they are “good” Muslims. He believes that men must be financially responsible for the well-being of their family, and not women. In other words, Tariq Ramadan is opposed to or equivocal about feminism, women’s rights, gay rights and sexual liberation. One should also have strong doubts about his respect of the freedom of speech and thought: in Switzerland he contributed to a campaign against a Voltaire play, and he wants Muslim parents to control the content of State school programs according to “Islamic values”, to give only two examples. But that does not prevent him from constantly using the key words of today’s public relations industry: “respect”, “tolerance”, “communication” and “dialogue” in the manner of a cynical politician.


In 1998 Ramadan wrote a foreword to a collection of fatwas by Yusuf al Qaradawi, published by the European Council of the Fatwa. According to this book, a husband, “has the right to forbid his wife to visit another woman, if he thinks this visit may cause a prejudice to his wife, his children or his marital life”, and a “woman should not take the initiative to talk to men she does not know”. A woman, “should not play with children who are dancing”. And the book goes on with themes like, “Should a Muslim woman use a credit card?” Or, “Should she cut her hair without her husband's authorization?” And this book declares abortion illegal.


40 reasons why Tariq Ramadan is a reactionary | Workers' Liberty


Tariq Ramadan when confronted with the issue of stoning women for adultery, proposing a moratorium in order to have a debate about it – "debate about whether we should stone women to death". There are some things you don’t debate, and one of those is whether or not to stone women to death.

and as for Shariah – maybe the question boils down to the difference between the universal principles of basic human rights and the religious idea of the eternal and absolute will of God.

Regards stoning I agree with you Kai. I can't argue the toss with you on that point - if he said it - and I must presume your source is accurate - he was wrong. No debate from me.
As regards Ramadan generally - my opinion remains intact.
He has written a lot and as your source says

Ramadan is the reasonable face of Islamic politics, and he is the thin end of the wedge.

Regards the reasonable face I agree. Regards the thin end of the wedge - I don't agree. I've hung around enough marxists not to be overly concerned about the thin ends of the many perceived wedges

As I understand it, a core point of Ramadans is that European culture and Islam do not have to be at odds.
From my point of view that is the point. He might (or might not ) be the most conservative chauvinist ever but that is aside the point.

 

[kai]

Regards stoning I agree with you Kai. I can't argue the toss with you on that point - if he said it - and I must presume your source is accurate - he was wrong. No debate from me.
As regards Ramadan generally - my opinion remains intact.
He has written a lot and as your source says
Regards the reasonable face I agree. Regards the thin end of the wedge - I don't agree. I've hung around enough marxists not to be overly concerned about the thin ends of the many perceived wedges

As I understand it, a core point of Ramadans is that European culture and Islam do not have to be at odds.
From my point of view that is the point. He might (or might not ) be the most conservative chauvinist ever but that is aside the point.

every Muslim if he/she believes himself to be a true Muslim holds the Quran then Hadith and Sharia to be Gods will on earth, there is no higher authority. It is unchangeable, it cannot evolve, In fact Islam still has not got its own identity due to the fact that it is open to interpretation which is why Tariq Ramadan has conceded that his greatest critics are in fact Muslim.He no more speaks for "Islam" than Osama Bin Laden does. as an atheist i cannot accept it, as a person of political views i cannot accept it. However i also would not try and prevent it in any other means than discussion.

over the years i have discussed it many times and i have met many Muslims and to be honest i cant decide if "Islam" is some kind of idea that doesn't exist at this moment in time. so what we are faced with in Europe isnt "true" Islam. To be honest i think the people that do "Islam" the most harm are Muslims.

another point about Ramadan is his opinion on interfaith dialogue. 'interreligious dialogue' would mean for him only giving an explanation of the Quran to non-Muslims. "other " religions will never be accepted by Muslims, tolerated maybe?

 

[sandandfoam]

However i also would not try and prevent it in any other means than discussion.

I think that's healthy. I think a sign of a healthy society is the existence of every shade of opinion and disagreement with them all.

over the years i have discussed it many times and i have met many Muslims and to be honest i cant decide if "Islam" is some kind of idea that doesn't exist at this moment in time. so what we are faced with in Europe isnt "true" Islam. To be honest i think the people that do "Islam" the most harm are Muslims.

Like all religions I think there are as many versions of a given religion as there are adherents. I honestly believe a distinctly European Islam is going to emerge over the coming decades

another point about Ramadan is his opinion on interfaith dialogue. 'interreligious dialogue' would mean for him only giving an explanation of the Quran to non-Muslims. "other " religions will never be accepted by Muslims, tolerated maybe?

I don't agree. I can't remember if I posted this before. I think I did -but I see it as a good counter example
Interfaith harmony urged for world peace

 

[GURSIKH]

You convert everyone to Islam bcos ,u see other religions to be wrong.Thats a very optimistic view.:clap

:clap

 

[GURSIKH]

be ready for paying Jazia

 

[darkendless]

Cultural values must be upheld. Freedom from religion is as important as freedom of religion.

After what i've seen become of Germany after a Turkish invasion i fear for Europe, i really do.

I do not dislike Islam but it concerns me given that western and muslim cultures do not fit well together. The writing is on the wall and has been for a while. Im sick of people preaching their love BS, discontent is growing.

 

[Kathryn]

Of course, I believe in freedom of religious expression, as long as the expression of that faith doesn't infringe on the rights of others. So in that context, I do not believe that Muslims in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter, should be curtailed from expressing and living their faith.

It's the infringements on the rights of others, that seems so pervasive in so many Muslim-dominated societies, that I have a big problem with.

In the US, the Muslims I know have assimilated well. I worked with a woman whose parents are Muslim Palestinians. She and her husband are terrific people. Our whole office enjoyed working with her, and hated losing her when her husband was transferred.

When Ramadan was going on, we all refrained from bringing food up to the office, because we knew she would be fasting. We enjoyed learning more about her Muslim faith and her take on the Palestinian issue.

She and her husband were very "liberal" about their faith. Being Palestinian, they had family members who were Christian and others who were Muslim. They actually had two weddings - a Muslim ceremony and a "Western" Christian ceremony. Of course, my friend never wore a veil, and her husband treated her like a goddess. But both of them were born and educated in the US - and their families were determined to assimilate. They had moved to the US to become Americans - not to re-create some Middle Eastern Muslim society.

I don't see much assimilation in Europe. That's what's alarming. And then the European governments keep pulling stupid crap out of their arses - like prohibitions against veils and minarets. Ridiculous! How on earth can the two "sides" unify when both sides seem intent on polarizing?