Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

[Ingledsva]

Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

This is not a political question, but a scriptural one. The Quran already prophesied in 17:104 that Jews would gather from different places to once again dwell in their promise land. So should Muslims just accept that this is part of Gods plan and let the Jews be in Israel? The question is open to Muslims, Jews, Christians and others.

Verses from Quran:
[17:4] We decreed to the Children of Israel in the book, that you will make corruption twice on earth, and that you will reach the zenith of arrogance.

[17:5] So, when the promise of the first one comes to pass, We would send against you servants of Ours who are very powerful, thus they managed to breach your very homes, and this was a promise which has come to pass.

[17:6] Then We gave back to you your independence from them, and We supplied you with wealth and children, and We made you more influential.

[17:7] If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter the Temple as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.

[17:104] We said after him to the Children of Israel: "Dwell in the land, then, when the time of the second promise comes, We will bring you all together as a mixed crowd."

Peace obviously isn't going to happen the way things are now - so...

I think "ALL" sides should present their cases before a world court.

It is after all rather appalling that certain groups thought they could give away other people's lands.

*

 

[Avi1001]

That is a sustainable narrative, but far from the only one. Others would argue that it was a war of freedom and independence of a land previously and unjustly usurped.

History tells us that Israel was unjustly usurped. But somehow, it seems, she finds herself more secure now than anytime in the past 3,000 years.

Nonetheless, it will take visionary and great leadership to build a real and lasting peace in the Middle East.

 

[Avi1001]

I am trying deal with the State of Israel on the same level as any other State.

I am not sure this is possible. Israel holds many unique positions throughout history.

I happen to agree that Israel occupies the high moral ground but, my beliefs in the morality of Israel is based on the Torah and, American values.
Most of the world does not share these values vis a vis "a moral high ground."

It is true, and a shame. This goes back to my earlier point about education. A great deal still remains to be accomplished.

So, in this particular thread, I am attempting to deal with Israel on par with any other nation.
And, in that light, the Jewish State of Israel most certainly did conquer the land it controls - just as the tribe of al Saud conquered the Arabian peninsula; or the late unlamented Quadafy conquered Libya; or Saddam conquered Iraq; or the Khomeini's Wiliyat al fiqh conquered Iran; or the Taliban conquered Afghanistan; or Russia conquered Chechnya and Georgia; or China conquered Tibet; or Vietnam conquered South Vietnam, etc., etc...

Now you are pointing to a series of lunatics. Is that the low bar that you want Israel to be compared to ? ....I don't think so.

The Jews, coming from an over 3,000 year old culture that values compassion and justice far more than its neighbors, were far more benign in their conquests but - they did conquer (and win, Thank G-d).

Here you are introducing a new idea, of "benign conquest". I don't think that is a notion that most visualize when you say conquest. But you are welcome to develop that argument if you think it is convincing.

 

[Shermana]

How about instead of just looking at the conquests of groups like the Communists (which isn't necessarily a bad thing to compare to per se) and Taliban (of which Afghanistan was already carved out by war before that), let's just look at you know, the big one, the USA, or Mexico, or Argentina, or Turkey, or the Congo. No one's screaming up and down for the USA to return the land to the natives, and there are still descendents of the Wounded Knee Massacre, heck, no one except the Aztlani Chicano nationalists are at least. And they're definitely not demanding Central American states to give the living Mayans autonomy. How many people today are demanding "Justice for Chiapas"? How many have actually heard of Sub-commandante Marcos? How many people are demanding "Justice for Kurdistan"? It's really just ridiculous to put some self-defeating expectations on Israel that applies to virtually no one else.

EVERY single nation on Earth, without exception, is founded by wars, both by conquest and defense of those lands. Every single country. The UN is entirely made up of countries carved out through war. From Africa to South America and Asia, every single tribe and people got their land through fighting for it. To refuse Israel the same respect from the same basis as EVERY other country in history is the reasoning of lunatics. Things didn't magically change after 1945. The rules of the game didn't change. Nations didn't get some sudden free pass for the raison d'etre of their existence that no longer applies afterwards. To say Israel is supposed to be more civilized and held to a "higher standard" is to otherwise say "No, Israel is not entitled to be a state by any reason".

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

Verses from Quran:
[17:4] We decreed to the Children of Israel in the book, that you will make corruption twice on earth, and that you will reach the zenith of arrogance.

[17:5] So, when the promise of the first one comes to pass, We would send against you servants of Ours who are very powerful, thus they managed to breach your very homes, and this was a promise which has come to pass.

[17:6] Then We gave back to you your independence from them, and We supplied you with wealth and children, and We made you more influential.

[17:7] If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter the Temple as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.

[17:104] We said after him to the Children of Israel: "Dwell in the land, then, when the time of the second promise comes, We will bring you all together as a mixed crowd."

The Holy Qur'aan 17 ; 1 - 10 , Revealed In The Year 618 A.D. Banee Israa'iyl ( Children of Yisrawale / Jacobites ) Or Al Isra ( The Night Journey ) .

Verses 1-10 , Is speaking about - Muhammad taken up in A craft from the sacred place of ( Prostration to the farthest place of Prostration - The Torah is a calmness for the Jacobites .

Verses 101 - 105 , Is speaking about - Mosheh is given nine signs - He is told to go to Pharaoh Rameses ll - The Pharaoh drowned , And the Israelites are saved .

In order to understand scriptures one must read the verse before and after to have an understanding what the scriptures are really saying .

 

[OnlyChristCanSaveMe]

I'm dont know much about Muslim, but I know Jew..Why when they steal its alright?

 

[Moishe3rd]

I'm dont know much about Muslim, but I know Jew..Why when they steal its alright?

Don't know much about you, but I know odd peculiarities.... Why you ask peculiar question like this?

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

I'm dont know much about Muslim, but I know Jew..Why when they steal its alright?

Very good question , Also why do people cover-up for them ? Meaning why do they hide the truth ??? Beware the Insult / Attacks will be comeing very soon now . They can't deal with the Fact's / Truth

 

[Moishe3rd]

Very good question , Also why do people cover-up for them ? Meaning why do they hide the truth ???

Very weird answer.
Also why do people play these canard games? Meaning why do you slander and run without context???

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

Very weird answer.
Also why do people play these canard games? Meaning why do you slander and run without context???

Truth hurt doesn't it , Everybody not going to cover up the truth , Truth always find away LOLOLOLOLOLOL Not even your Attack / Insult can help you now !

The Holy Qur'aan 17 ; 81 , States , And I quote ; And Say The ( Facts Beyind And Doubt ) Have Come And ( False Ways Were To Varish In Time ) .

 

[Moishe3rd]

Truth hurt doesn't it , Everybody not going to cover up the truth , Truth always find away LOLOLOLOLOLOL Not even your Attack / Insult can help you now !

The Holy Qur'aan 17 ; 81 , States , And I quote ; And Say The ( Facts Beyind And Doubt ) Have Come And ( False Ways Were To Varish In Time ) .

In reality - not in your world obviously - no. Truth does not hurt.
However, sometimes the mood does strike me to amuse fools. And, I know that this is not nice of me but, we all have our yetzer hora's and I give in and indulge.
Happy to help...
Kol tuv.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

History tells us that Israel was unjustly usurped.

I would argue that the [re]creation of Israel involved unjust usurpation.

But somehow, it seems, she finds herself more secure now than anytime in the past 3,000 years.

Really? ... as it invests huge resources in missile defense systems, constructs safe rooms and bomb shelters throughout the country, struggles to adequately supply gas masks to its civilian population, etc.? Interesting. How would you compare the security of the last 65 years with the roughly 2 centuries stretching from the building of the 2nd Temple to the conquest of Alexander the Great?

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

In reality - not in your world obviously - no. Truth does not hurt.
However, sometimes the mood does strike me to amuse fools. And, I know that this is not nice of me but, we all have our yetzer hora's and I give in and indulge.
Happy to help...
Kol tuv.

These Attacks , Insulted are to be expected when the truth / facts come . Truth has always hurt the one's who try's to Cover/ Hide it . What funny is few here Knows what I have post so far , Is nothing but the Truth. So they Attack me and those that bring it like they're going to do to OnlyChristCanSaveMe because he dare to speak the truth , People like you fear those who can think for themselves .

 

[Moishe3rd]

I would argue that the [re]creation of Israel involved unjust usurpation.

Really? ... as it invests huge resources in missile defense systems, constructs safe rooms and bomb shelters throughout the country, struggles to adequately supply gas masks to its civilian population, etc.? Interesting. How would you compare the security of the last 65 years with the roughly 2 centuries stretching from the building of the 2nd Temple to the conquest of Alexander the Great?

Pretty dicey. Hardscrabble life. And, oddly enough, not much of a record at all of any significant Jewish events going on in Israel during that time period.

How would you compare it?

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

I would argue that the [re]creation of Israel involved unjust usurpation.

Really? ... as it invests huge resources in missile defense systems, constructs safe rooms and bomb shelters throughout the country, struggles to adequately supply gas masks to its civilian population, etc.? Interesting. How would you compare the security of the last 65 years with the roughly 2 centuries stretching from the building of the 2nd Temple to the conquest of Alexander the Great?

If you didn't have this problem of wanting people to accept everything you say you make some good point Like the above . Maybe your lock into seeing things one way !

 

[RabbiO]

I'm dont know much about Muslim, but I know Jew..Why when they steal its alright?

I don't mean to derail this thread, but what exactly do you know, or think you know, about Jews?

And when you talk about stealing, are you simply referring to the state of Israel, or are you making some other kind of accusation?

Just wondering.

Peter

 

[Flankerl]

I dont know whats more confusing. That there are so many trolls or that some many people continue to engage them in their obvious trolling.

 

[Shermana]

I'm dont know much about Muslim, but I know Jew..Why when they steal its alright?

Who says they are stealing? What makes the land the Palestinian's? Who says the Arabs weren't stealing? Where do you live? Do you live in the USA?

How do you know God doesn't want the Jews there?

 

[Shermana]

I dont know whats more confusing. That there are so many trolls or that some many people continue to engage them in their obvious trolling.

The problem is that unless Troll arguments are engaged, it looks like one is shying away from them.

 

[Assad91]

Who says they are stealing? What makes the land the Palestinian's? Who says the Arabs weren't stealing? Where do you live? Do you live in the USA?

How do you know God doesn't want the Jews there?

Maybe stealing is the wrong word.

How about.. Why are the zionist Jews so barbaric that they employ imperialist policies, and still believe in conquering land and occupying it?