Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

[Assad91]

. In the past, Israel has, in most cases, set a moral high ground. That does not come through conquest.

Like attacking women and children with phosphorus? Oh yeah, moral high ground

 

[Assad91]

my beliefs in the morality of Israel is based on the Torah and, American values.

Ah, so that is why t is okay to slaughter a native population in order to usurp their land! And use phosphorus on innocent civilians. And, oh can't forget, the bullyin tactics of those weaker.

Nice values.

 

[Shermana]

Maybe stealing is the wrong word.

How about.. Why are the zionist Jews so barbaric that they employ imperialist policies, and still believe in conquering land and occupying it?

Apparently Islamists are really cool with imperialist policies, conquering land, and occupying it. Let me know when you plan on giving a tenth of your attention to Kurdistan. Or North Africa. Or Central Africa. And it's not like "Palestine" was occupied by Arabs (to the point of being a significant demographic at least) and Muslims before 637. I guess you believe that after so many years, you no longer are the conquerors.

1,400 Years of Islamic Aggression: An Analysis

With that said, I see no reason why Israel should be put under some special criteria that no other country on Earth is under. All countries got their borders through fighting.

And with that said, you're basically avoiding the entire history behind Israel. The land was purchased, the UN partition was mostly for areas that the Jews were the population majority, and the borders of "Palestine" were arbitrary to begin with. The Arabs sure had no problem with all the other arbitrary borders the Europeans defined. No one complained about Iraq. But the borders of "Palestine" they felt entitled to all of it, even though no such borders existed since before the British laid them out.

As far as I'm concerned, calling the Zionists "barbaric" is just a smokescreen masking what is otherwise blatant projection.

 

[Assad91]

Apparently Islamists are really cool with imperialist policies, conquering land, and occupying it. Let me know when you plan on giving a tenth of your attention to Kurdistan. Or North Africa. Or Central Africa. And it's not like "Palestine" was occupied by Arabs (to the point of being a significant demographic at least) and Muslims before 637. I guess you believe that after so many years, you no longer are the conquerors.

1,400 Years of Islamic Aggression: An Analysis

With that said, I see no reason why Israel should be put under some special criteria that no other country on Earth is under. All countries got their borders through fighting.

And with that said, you're basically avoiding the entire history behind Israel. The land was purchased, the UN partition was mostly for areas that the Jews were the population majority, and the borders of "Palestine" were arbitrary to begin with. The Arabs sure had no problem with all the other arbitrary borders the Europeans defined. No one complained about Iraq. But the borders of "Palestine" they felt entitled to all of it, even though no such borders existed since before the British laid them out.

As far as I'm concerned, calling the Zionists "barbaric" is just a smokescreen masking what is otherwise blatant projection.

Its funny. You can't see how it is barbaric to act as if you are centuries in the past.

 

[Shermana]

Its funny. You can't see how it is barbaric to act as if you are centuries in the past.

By your own logic, why aren't you 1% as concerned about people acting centuries in the past in your own backyard?

What is Israel supposed to do to become a 21st century civilization? Give up and surrender to people who live in the mentality of the 7th century without any regard for the historical context of the struggle?

You have yet to indicate a remote familiarity with the actual causes of the wars and the transfer of control of the land, your knowledge of the situation seems to be limited to slogans and a few pieces of rhetoric without any regard for the geopolitical realities.

 

[Avi1001]

Like attacking women and children with phosphorus? Oh yeah, moral high ground

I believe I said "in most cases". No one in the Middle East has been without some blame. That is why the ME needs paradigm change. What do they need most.......education .

 

[OnlyChristCanSaveMe]

I don't mean to derail this thread, but what exactly do you know, or think you know, about Jews?

And when you talk about stealing, are you simply referring to the state of Israel, or are you making some other kind of accusation?

Just wondering.

Peter

I know the Jew been kicked out every country in europe at sometime in history long before Hitlers Germany. I not sure why they been kicked? Maybe they do something bad? Maybe they make problem for the government? I know few Jew personally but they no follow any religion, only make money and dont spend it.

Yes I am talk about Israel, why should they get it "back", why the Indians and Mexicans dont get Americas back?

I know history always repeating itself, maybe they make problem again in Israel and they get kick from there in future, highly probable based on their history.

 

[OnlyChristCanSaveMe]

Who says they are stealing?

Taking thing without permission of the owner is stealing. If I want take something from Group A should ask them? or should I take permission from everybody except Group A?

What makes the land the Palestinian's?

They take it in the dark ages, when everybody take what they want, like Russia too..but that was before the league of nations and the UN, how this is allowed in modern civilize world?, I dont know.

Who says the Arabs weren't stealing?

Arab stole it when everyone steal land, the strong take from weak, like every pieces of land on the entire world. But time is change now, values is changed.

Where do you live? Do you live in the USA?

I from Russia, I play ice hockey, my dream to play in NHL someday.

How do you know God doesn't want the Jews there?

I dont know what Christ want, I am thinking he is wanting all human to live peace and be like family the children of Adam. I am think he give different people power and make strong at different times in history so he can test what we do with this. Like Pharaoh of Egypt also, he want justice, like he did when he save the Jew from Pharaoh who is unjust powerful man, who give Pharaoh this power? Christ/God ? Why? The Lord give and he take. I believe Christ look at people and dont see Jew or Christian or Muslim, he see our reality for what it is, what we are doing with the opportunity he give us, not what color or race or religion we follow.

I'm not fan of Muslim or Arab, but Palestine issue is seeming bit unfair to me. Like I explain in up paragraph.
The problem I see with Muslim is they pointing fingers always and want whole world to be like them. They themselves no educated on their own religion and fighting and killing themselve. Especially the Arab Muslim is making problem and taking their faith to be proud of it only like Osama, I meet two Muslim in my life one from Pakistan and other from Malaysia, both is good men no terrorist. They work in Turkish restaurant and always like sharing food, even I say no thank you, they ask me till I take a bit of it. I dont like talk religion with anybody except christian and they are respecting this, They dont like vodka, so I only see them after winter.

 

[Pastek]

Yes I am talk about Israel, why should they get it "back", why the Indians and Mexicans dont get Americas back?

Exactly :yes:

And it was more recent.

 

[Caladan]

Since it seems most of the posts evaded discussing the OP, which specifically sought to address Qur'anic scriptural context, I might as well chime in on that.
First to comment on the OP. There are Muslims who acknowledge the verses about the destiny of Jews securing themselves in the land of promise. In fact, I remember the first time that I read the Qur'an many years ago I was shocked to read these verses, but taking into account the greater context of the Qur'an they are not necessarily surprising. These verses were written around the time that the first Muslims were still not locked in the modern political 'cosmic battle between Jews and Muslims'. At that time we can see that the most dominant persona in the Islamic scriptures is Moses, the central figure of Judaism, and that much of the 'punch lines' of the Qur'an were in the spirit of Jewish lore (or presaged in Jewish lore).

As for the political posts. Some Muslim players certainly acknowledged the Jews sovereignty over Israel. Peace treaties were signed, Arab Muslim populations in Israel choosing to fight on the Israeli side (for example Bedouins, or Druze who are a historical off-shoot of Shia Islam), before the Justice and Development Party took power in Turkey the two nations had very strong ties, and strong ties with the Turkish military still remain behind the Islamist scenes. In addition many Muslim countries do have ties with Israel which the parties try to keep under the radar to avoid attention.

As for the hypothetical reality of denial of Israel's right for sovereignty. Those Muslims who throw the dull and rusted slogans about imperialism and so forth, need to begin coming to terms with the fact that these stances are irrelevant to Israeli Jews who defeated Arab forces in possibly dozens conflicts and proved their sovereignty a hundred times over. So in reality, it doesn't matter if you recognize Israel or not, Israel has established itself in the Middle East much more than artificial nations like Syria, Iraq, and others who crumble before our eyes as Muslims from different sects and other groups butcher each other in a blood orgy. In addition, slightly more than half of the Jewish population in Israel is made of Mid Eastern Jews who lived in the region centuries before the appearance of Islam. Ironically these Jews are much more hard line in their stance against Arabs and Muslims than the 'European Jews' (your lovely 'Imperialists'). Perhaps they want to get even with the Muslims for expelling them from THEIR native lands.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Since it seems most of the posts evaded discussing the OP, which specifically sought to address Qur'anic scriptural context, I might as well chime in on that.
First to comment on the OP. There are Muslims who acknowledge the verses about the destiny of Jews securing themselves in the land of promise. In fact, I remember the first time that I read the Qur'an many years ago I was shocked to read these verses, but taking into account the greater context of the Qur'an they are not necessarily surprising. These verses were written around the time that the first Muslims were still not locked in the modern political 'cosmic battle between Jews and Muslims'. At that time we can see that the most dominant persona in the Islamic scriptures is Moses, the central figure of Judaism, and that much of the 'punch lines' of the Qur'an were in the spirit of Jewish lore (or presaged in Jewish lore).

As for the political posts. Some Muslim players certainly acknowledged the Jews sovereignty over Israel. Peace treaties were signed, Arab Muslim populations in Israel choosing to fight on the Israeli side (for example Bedouins, or Druze who are a historical off-shoot of Shia Islam), before the Justice and Development Party took power in Turkey the two nations had very strong ties, and strong ties with the Turkish military still remain behind the Islamist scenes. In addition many Muslim countries do have ties with Israel which the parties try to keep under the radar to avoid attention.

As for the hypothetical reality of denial of Israel's right for sovereignty. Those Muslims who throw the dull and rusted slogans about imperialism and so forth, need to begin coming to terms with the fact that these stances are irrelevant to Israeli Jews who defeated Arab forces in possibly dozens conflicts and proved their sovereignty a hundred times over. So in reality, it doesn't matter if you recognize Israel or not, Israel has established itself in the Middle East much more than artificial nations like Syria, Iraq, and others who crumble before our eyes as Muslims from different sects and other groups butcher each other in a blood orgy. In addition, slightly more than half of the Jewish population in Israel is made of Mid Eastern Jews who lived in the region centuries before the appearance of Islam. Ironically these Jews are much more hard line in their stance against Arabs and Muslims than the 'European Jews' (your lovely 'Imperialists'). Perhaps they want to get even with the Muslims for expelling them from THEIR native lands.

This is good.
I would question "the modern political 'cosmic battle between Jews and Muslims'"
I don't think that actually exists.
The only real battles against Israel are for the purposes of "saving face;" machismo; "Arab pride."
As you note, the real Arab/Muslim battles are against each other as every faction; sect; clan; tribe; and polity, vies for dominance and power over the others.
Attacks against Israel or any of the rest of the "Far Enemy" are simply street cred and coup points to gather more support for their own particular faction in slaughtering other Arabs and Muslims....

 

[metis]

I know the Jew been kicked out every country in europe at sometime in history long before Hitlers Germany. I not sure why they been kicked? Maybe they do something bad? Maybe they make problem for the government? I know few Jew personally but they no follow any religion, only make money and dont spend it.

Yes I am talk about Israel, why should they get it "back", why the Indians and Mexicans dont get Americas back?

I know history always repeating itself, maybe they make problem again in Israel and they get kick from there in future, highly probable based on their history.

There were 6 million Jews living in Poland alone prior to WWII, and an additional 3 million living in other European countries. So, please tell us what we did that was so bad that we periodically suffered from pogroms, being put in ghettos, and then have the NAZI's commit genocide on us? Are you aware that it was first Thomas Aquinas that proposed that we should be put into ghettos so that we wouldn't taint Christians? Therefore, this and most other discriminatory factors were actually mostly based on religious differences.

Let me remind you that traditional Europe was not exactly a bastion of religious or ethic freedom. The Wars of Religion between Catholics and Protestants lasted over a hundred years. Calvin kicked all Catholics out of his part of Switzerland under possible penalty of death? Ethnic battles were commonplace between countries and also within many countries. The Crusaders cut a swath of destruction and genocide as they marched eastward. The Inquisition tortured anyone who was suspected of being an infidel. Dissenters were burned at the stake, including in the colonies here in the States.

As far as money is concerned, traditionally in most of Europe Jews could not own land and tended to be poor. In cities whereas they had more freedom, such as Vienna before WWII, some did prosper.

And also, Jews never completely left the Holy Land, although we were in a minority in most areas after the Romans killed so many Jews and kicked most of the rest out. There was and is plenty of land in that region, and Palestinians do indeed have their own state, and it is called "Jordan". BTW, I'm not going to get into the Israel/Palestinian conflict on this thread, just to be clear.

 

[metis]

Exactly :yes:

And it was more recent.

Do you think Pakistan should be returned back to the greater India whereas it came from?

 

[Pastek]

Do you think Pakistan should be returned back to the greater India whereas it came from?

Why not. You must ask them, i'm arab it doesn't concern me.

 

[Juhurka]

It's very funny to see my posts get deleted for allegedly violating forum rules but to see bunch of towel head freaks post nothing but lies and hate.

Ideas expressed in this thread really provide a good picture of how people think in the Middle East, trying to talk to these people is a waist of time and the best option is to keep them at a bullets distance from our selfs and our borders.

Jews, are the legal owners of the land of Israel. You can all scream your lungs out but that would not change that fact. You can all go blow your selfs up and that would not change that fact either.

Before arabs demand anything they should take a hard look in the mirror, scratch their head and if they have any brain there at all should first give back all the lands that they have conquered and apologize for all the people that they have slaughtered through out their history and maybe then they can complain about Israel.

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

Since it seems most of the posts evaded discussing the OP, which specifically sought to address Qur'anic scriptural context, I might as well chime in on that.
First to comment on the OP. There are Muslims who acknowledge the verses about the destiny of Jews securing themselves in the land of promise. In fact, I remember the first time that I read the Qur'an many years ago I was shocked to read these verses, but taking into account the greater context of the Qur'an they are not necessarily surprising. These verses were written around the time that the first Muslims were still not locked in the modern political 'cosmic battle between Jews and Muslims'. At that time we can see that the most dominant persona in the Islamic scriptures is Moses, the central figure of Judaism, and that much of the 'punch lines' of the Qur'an were in the spirit of Jewish lore (or presaged in Jewish lore).

As for the political posts. Some Muslim players certainly acknowledged the Jews sovereignty over Israel. Peace treaties were signed, Arab Muslim populations in Israel choosing to fight on the Israeli side (for example Bedouins, or Druze who are a historical off-shoot of Shia Islam), before the Justice and Development Party took power in Turkey the two nations had very strong ties, and strong ties with the Turkish military still remain behind the Islamist scenes. In addition many Muslim countries do have ties with Israel which the parties try to keep under the radar to avoid attention.

As for the hypothetical reality of denial of Israel's right for sovereignty. Those Muslims who throw the dull and rusted slogans about imperialism and so forth, need to begin coming to terms with the fact that these stances are irrelevant to Israeli Jews who defeated Arab forces in possibly dozens conflicts and proved their sovereignty a hundred times over. So in reality, it doesn't matter if you recognize Israel or not, Israel has established itself in the Middle East much more than artificial nations like Syria, Iraq, and others who crumble before our eyes as Muslims from different sects and other groups butcher each other in a blood orgy. In addition, slightly more than half of the Jewish population in Israel is made of Mid Eastern Jews who lived in the region centuries before the appearance of Islam. Ironically these Jews are much more hard line in their stance against Arabs and Muslims than the 'European Jews' (your lovely 'Imperialists'). Perhaps they want to get even with the Muslims for expelling them from THEIR native lands.

Question if I may how well do you know the Holy Qur'aan ?

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

Let see how much people really know about Muslims , Who are the Real / Original Muslims . Not trying to derail the post .

 

[Asante]

I find it unbelievable that some people actually believe that Khazar kingdom converts who occupy Israel today are descended from the original Hebrews.

 

[Shermana]

I find it unbelievable that some people actually believe that Khazar kingdom converts who occupy Israel today are descended from the original Hebrews.

I find it unbelieveable that there are people believe all Ashkenazis descend from the tiny Khazar elite who actually converted. It's amazing the suspension of logic and probability (and basic history, like all the Jewish settlements throughout Europe before that time) will take when it comes to Jews.

And of course, the DNA tests that link us to Mizrahim and Sephardim are ALL a bunch of Zionist lies.

 

[Caladan]

Question if I may how well do you know the Holy Qur'aan ?

Just so I understand where you are taking this and by which standards you are judging familiarity with the Qur'an. What is your criteria for basic or good knowledge of the Qur'an, and where do you personally stand in relation to that criteria?

I find it unbelievable that some people actually believe that Khazar kingdom converts who occupy Israel today are descended from the original Hebrews.

First. Israeli society has millions of Jews who are Middle Eastern, ergo, people who have lived in the Near East since the dawn of history.
Secondly, considering Ashkenazi relation to the Khazar Khaganate. Lets assume for a minute that Ashkenazi Jews are descendants from the Khazars. So what of it? The Khazars were a remarkable people. By the standards of history an empire. And just like many kingdoms and people converted to Christianity, and many other nations and tribes converted to Islam, the Khazar royalty and elite converted to Judaism. Is there any shame in that? I don't find anything shameful in that personally, only an enigmatic part of history. Unexplored seriously by most people, but on the other hand extensively exploited in pseudo-history in a superficial way to justify political agendas.
The historical fact is of course, that Khazar genes are only a relatively small portion of the Ashkenazi background which is largely connected to the Rhineland area and of course also traces to the Middle East, and Middle Eastern Jews, and also other Middle Eastern communities, such as the Palestinians.