Should we fear Islam?

[Mr Spinkles]

Edward Gibbon writes about Islam in his volume, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? I didn't know that. I have that book sitting on my shelf, I haven't read it yet.

It's worth pointing out that Gibbon relies very heavily on primary sources and I understand that scholars do not take issue with the accuracy of his history.

 

[Snowber]

1. So everything is false except the Qu'ran?
2. The Qu'ran is false because you can't prove it is the legitimate word of a God?

So far you have zero evidence for your cause then!


That just appears to compare the Qu'ran story book against the bible story book.

They are both just man made story books!

You still have NOTHING legitimate to offer!

Thanks for your time any how!

Dear Composer,

Now if you're looking for evidence step 1 is to have an open heart and be a little less pessimistic. I am not saying pessimism is always bad but in extremes it can be.

When you're ready take a look at Islam (Submission). Your best source for Islam on the Intenet. Happiness is submission to God.-Islam-Submission-Introduction,definition, discussion, debate, laws, justice, human rights, history, terrorism, Jihad, women, Jews, Jesus, Christianity-Isla

and you will find a plethora of evidence for the Qu'ran as well as evidence against Hadith/Sunnah as religious sources. Peace

 

[Composer]

Yet anti-Islamics attacking Muslims and Islam is not biased propaganda?

Are you really that big a hypocrite?

I did a quick Google and there appear to be a few Forums formed by ex-Muslems.

As ex-Muslems, surely their attacks against active Muslem ideology is ' informed attacks ' ?

Scholars who research legitimate documents pointing out Islamic or trinitarian atrocities isn't hypocrytical bias either, it's just collating the facts!

Your unreasonable bias is protruding still!

 

[Composer]

Edward Gibbon writes about Islam in his volume, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? I didn't know that. I have that book sitting on my shelf, I haven't read it yet.

It's worth pointing out that Gibbon relies very heavily on primary sources and I understand that scholars do not take issue with the accuracy of his history.

I have repeatedly asked Muslems to provide legitimate documented refutation of Gibbon's Works based upon his ' primary sources '. They legitimately can't, because those primary sources are legitimate and bona fide and Islam is decimated by them.

I only have the Abridged Version, perhaps there is more and the References cited in your Volumes? I would be interested in anything more it provides?

Cheers!

 

[Composer]

Dear Composer,

Now if you're looking for evidence step 1 is to have an open heart and be a little less pessimistic. I am not saying pessimism is always bad but in extremes it can be.

When you're ready take a look at Islam (Submission). Your best source for Islam on the Intenet. Happiness is submission to God.-Islam-Submission-Introduction,definition, discussion, debate, laws, justice, human rights, history, terrorism, Jihad, women, Jews, Jesus, Christianity-Isla

and you will find a plethora of evidence for the Qu'ran as well as evidence against Hadith/Sunnah as religious sources. Peace

Ok so I need to know for certain how things now stand?

1. You are stating that there is evidence for the Qu'ran?

The words of men claiming it is the literal word of Allah is no legitimate evidence at all, just as the words of men claiming the bible is literally a God's word is also nothing of value.

2. By what authority do you state that ALL writings external to the Qu'ran are spurious (false) and should never be considered?

I need this as a permanant record for the future in case others claim Hadith's etc. are considered as also legitimate alongside the Qu'ran?

Thank you

 

[McBell]

I did a quick Google and there appear to be a few Forums formed by ex-Muslems.

Ah yes, the die hard research of the serious scholar...Google.

As ex-Muslems, surely their attacks against active Muslem ideology is ' informed attacks ' ?

Yes, the best information comes from someone who is against that which you research.
Cause if you want to know how a person is you always go ask their ex's.

Scholars who research legitimate documents pointing out Islamic or trinitarian atrocities isn't hypocrytical bias either, it's just collating the facts!

True.
To bad you have not presented anything from Scholars....
Oops.

Your unreasonable bias is protruding still!

Your skill in transference is most impressive.
However, your desperation ad hominem does not help your argument.

 

[Composer]

Ah yes, the die hard research of the serious scholar...Google.

Google as you should know is not the source, it is merely the means to reach the source(s) availble online or ascertain via online references to offline resources.

Yes, the best information comes from someone who is against that which you research.
Cause if you want to know how a person is you always go ask their ex's.

They only form a part of the evidence from their first hand personal experience.

Historians are another method.

Asking Muslems themselves as I have done here and elsewhere is another method I have also tried, however even getting them to answer a simple question like " What group of Muslems that exist today would be the exact same group or teachings that Mahomet was and would join today? ' however no legitimate or even honest answer was forthcoming?

I have also asked muslems for any alleged legitimate historical documented evidence to refute the primary sources historians have used. That has not been forthcoming either for scrutiny?

I also ask why do Hadiths and all external Qu'ranic verses etc. all exist still IF they are not considered legitimate by Islam? (Should not a unanimous Islamic effort be made to destroy them?)

Is there a Link to where Muslems agree to denounce all those external (non-Qu'ranic documents/verses?)

If not, then obviously internal division exists in that and other regards (hence the sub-groups) and Islam is divided against itself.

True.
To bad you have not presented anything from Scholars....

Depends on your interpretation of a ' scholar '

Historians such as those I provided are scholars until such time as you can legitimately demonstrate otherwise?

Your skill in transference is most impressive.
However, your desperation ad hominem does not help your argument.

Legitimate and factual Historical documentation as researched by the Historians I referenced is certainly not ad hominem.

For my records however, a list of my alleged ' ad hominem ' appeals would be great?

Over to you again!

 

[Autodidact]

To go back to the original subject of the thread, it occurred to me that Christianity has a similar but different problem of its adherents engaging in evil acts contrary to its scriptures. Only in Christianity it's not violence, it's greed.

There are hundreds of preachers here in the U.S. who have become incredibly wealthy by preaching and practicing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, under the name "Christianity." They preach a prosperity/magic gospel, that God wants you to be rich, and the way to become rich is to donate to them, because God will reward your giving by making you rich. I know it sounds ridiculous, and has no biblical support whatsoever, but believe me, I'm not making this up. Ordinary people, many of them poor, send their little checks in to these TV ministers, and they add up to $ millions, which they spend on jets, mansions, yachts and the like.

It's kind of funny because Jesus taught to give everything you have to the poor, and these people get the poor to give everything they have to them!

Anyway, it's comparable. It's not True Christianity, but it is actual Christianity, and it's up to Christians to do something about it and persuade other Christians and the world that these evil sham representatives of their religion have traveled far from the true teachings.

 

[Composer]

To go back to the original subject of the thread, it occurred to me that Christianity has a similar but different problem of its adherents engaging in evil acts contrary to its scriptures. Only in Christianity it's not violence, it's greed.

There are hundreds of preachers here in the U.S. who have become incredibly wealthy by preaching and practicing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, under the name "Christianity." They preach a prosperity/magic gospel, that God wants you to be rich, and the way to become rich is to donate to them, because God will reward your giving by making you rich. I know it sounds ridiculous, and has no biblical support whatsoever, but believe me, I'm not making this up. Ordinary people, many of them poor, send their little checks in to these TV ministers, and they add up to $ millions, which they spend on jets, mansions, yachts and the like.

It's kind of funny because Jesus taught to give everything you have to the poor, and these people get the poor to give everything they have to them!

Anyway, it's comparable. It's not True Christianity, but it is actual Christianity, and it's up to Christians to do something about it and persuade other Christians and the world that these evil sham representatives of their religion have traveled far from the true teachings.

You make some great points!

Just recently the Australian Government uncovered corruption within the Moslem Schools. I'll explain briefly - Certain Moslem schools applied for grants increasing in payments according to the number of enrolled students. Some Moslem schools were caught ' fudging the books ' by misrepresenting the number of actual enrollments to a fabricated far greater figure and illegally and corruptly received $millions to which they were not entitled. That's a current and modern day sample of the standards of Islam demonstrated by their own teaching establsihments!

That's the sort of corrupt standards Islamic schools are instilling in their students.

 

[McBell]

That's the sort of corrupt standards Islamic schools are instilling in their students.

Really?
The schools are actually teaching them how they cheated the system?

 

[Ba'al]

Just recently the Australian Government uncovered corruption within the Moslem Schools. I'll explain briefly - Certain Moslem schools applied for grants increasing in payments according to the number of enrolled students. Some Moslem schools were caught ' fudging the books ' by misrepresenting the number of actual enrollments to a fabricated far greater figure and illegally and corruptly received $millions to which they were not entitled. That's a current and modern day sample of the standards of Islam demonstrated by their own teaching establsihments!

That's the sort of corrupt standards Islamic schools are instilling in their students.

Your reasoning is flawed. Islam does not teach any behavior like that. That is like saying because there are so many priests molesting little boys, that Christianity teaches it. Or one can say there have been a large number of murderers who are atheists, so atheism promotes murdering people. I think you purposely try to mislead because you cannot find such evidence in the quran, the source of Islam.

 

[darkendless]

Really?
The schools are actually teaching them how they cheated the system?

No.

He neglected to mention that about 5 or 6 non-muslim schools in Queesnalnd have recently been caught doing the same thing, one of them being the most prestigious school on the Gold Coast (where i live).

All of the schools involved are setting poor examples for the children who attend them. It is very much a shame that these things occur in this country.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

To go back to the original subject of the thread, it occurred to me that Christianity has a similar but different problem of its adherents engaging in evil acts contrary to its scriptures. Only in Christianity it's not violence, it's greed.

There are hundreds of preachers here in the U.S. who have become incredibly wealthy by preaching and practicing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, under the name "Christianity." They preach a prosperity/magic gospel, that God wants you to be rich, and the way to become rich is to donate to them, because God will reward your giving by making you rich. I know it sounds ridiculous, and has no biblical support whatsoever, but believe me, I'm not making this up. Ordinary people, many of them poor, send their little checks in to these TV ministers, and they add up to $ millions, which they spend on jets, mansions, yachts and the like.

It's kind of funny because Jesus taught to give everything you have to the poor, and these people get the poor to give everything they have to them!

Anyway, it's comparable. It's not True Christianity, but it is actual Christianity, and it's up to Christians to do something about it and persuade other Christians and the world that these evil sham representatives of their religion have traveled far from the true teachings.

Excellent observation. :clap

 

[McBell]

No.

He neglected to mention that about 5 or 6 non-muslim schools in Queesnalnd have recently been caught doing the same thing, one of them being the most prestigious school on the Gold Coast (where i live).

All of the schools involved are setting poor examples for the children who attend them. It is very much a shame that these things occur in this country.

Wow.
Talk about selective reporting....

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

The original question of the OP remains unanswered after 48 pages

So can we restart from zero, and let the OP define what he means by an extremist and a modernist, in order to stick to the subject?

Thank you

 

[Autodidact]

You make some great points!

Just recently the Australian Government uncovered corruption within the Moslem Schools. I'll explain briefly - Certain Moslem schools applied for grants increasing in payments according to the number of enrolled students. Some Moslem schools were caught ' fudging the books ' by misrepresenting the number of actual enrollments to a fabricated far greater figure and illegally and corruptly received $millions to which they were not entitled. That's a current and modern day sample of the standards of Islam demonstrated by their own teaching establsihments!

That's the sort of corrupt standards Islamic schools are instilling in their students.

Well, anyone can do that, and probably does. It's not a Muslim thing just because some Muslims do it. I'm talking about things that Muslims and Muslim authorities do in the name of Islam, because they believe it's Islamic. (Please note, I'm passing no judgment on whether they're right, merely saying that they believe it.)

 

[Autodidact]

Excellent observation. :clap

I'm glad someone liked it, because I've got another one. The Catholic church has a huge similar problem, and there's is sex. Worse for them, it's not lay Catholics, it's the priests, bishops, cardinals and all the way up to the Pope. I doubt that even they believe that Jesus taught us to rape little boys, protect the rapists, facilitate their continued access to victims, and do everything in our power to prevent their prosecution, but that's what the Church has been doing in the name of Christ.

We can as well ask, should we fear Catholicism?

 

[Gharib]

Wow.
Talk about selective reporting....

i live in australia i never heard of it.

 

[Gharib]

You make some great points!

Just recently the Australian Government uncovered corruption within the Moslem Schools. I'll explain briefly - Certain Moslem schools applied for grants increasing in payments according to the number of enrolled students. Some Moslem schools were caught ' fudging the books ' by misrepresenting the number of actual enrollments to a fabricated far greater figure and illegally and corruptly received $millions to which they were not entitled. That's a current and modern day sample of the standards of Islam demonstrated by their own teaching establsihments!

That's the sort of corrupt standards Islamic schools are instilling in their students.

i am from australia if this had happened i would have heard of it, please post your source.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The original question of the OP remains unanswered after 48 pages

So can we restart from zero, and let the OP define what he means by an extremist and a modernist, in order to stick to the subject?

Thank you

Well, on the one hand we have groups like Al Qaeda or the Taliban, essentially universally hated by almost everyone (it seems) for their terrorist attacks on civilians, their intolerance and oppression.

However, I suspect the OP is referring to the conflict between moderates and "extremists" in the political arena, excluding the terrorists. This is a political and religious divide about things like the limitations of free speech, freedom of religion, capital punishment, women's rights and the role of women in society, sharia law vs. secular law, science and evolution, the legitimate uses of violence, and so on. There seems to be a spectrum of views on these issues, I think the OP calls one side of the spectrum "extreme" and the other side "moderate" but I don't think there's a clear dividing line. The only clear boundary is between those who accept indiscriminate violence and those who reject it. After that, it's a political spectrum.

Just my impressions, anyway.