Should we fear Islam?

[.lava]

Despite your Islam being peaceful, these people are as committed to their Islam... and willing to kill infidels and themselves to prove it.

It is a version of Islam, and claiming it is not a version (and evil versus versus a peacful one) is ignoring the facts. If Bin Ladin were asked if he was a muslim, what would he say? How much less committed is he to his faith than you are to yours?

just today's news, friend. it's about Bin Laden. his "soldier" says that commands of Bin Laden are "farz" to all Muslims. do you know what farz is? let me explain; farz is what God commands us to do or not to do. IMO only this detail about Bin Laden tells enough of his character, his intention and his quality as a Muslim. next time you calculate behavour of Muslims, please consider the difference between being committed to God and being committed to this world; greed, hatred, revenge and ambitions. maybe you realize how easy it becomes for some men to follow their egos as gods, justify their acts by ignoring truth of Islam itself and even claim certain acts that's required by their personal purposes to be "Command Of God"

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[sonofskeptish]

just today's news, friend. it's about Bin Laden. his "soldier" says that commands of Bin Laden are "farz" to all Muslims. do you know what farz is? let me explain; farz is what God commands us to do or not to do. IMO only this detail about Bin Laden tells enough of his character, his intention and his quality as a Muslim. next time you calculate behavour of Muslims, please consider the difference between being committed to God and being committed to this world; greed, hatred, revenge and ambitions. maybe you realize how easy it becomes for some men to follow their egos as gods, justify their acts by ignoring truth of Islam itself and even claim certain acts that's required by their personal purposes to be "Command Of God"

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Is Bin Laden a muslim?

 

[.lava]

Is Bin Laden a muslim?

how should i know?

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[sonofskeptish]

how should i know?

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Before I do a little research and post my results, just to be clear, are you claiming you do not know if Bin Laden is a muslim?

 

[sonofskeptish]

Is any muslim on RF willing to answer this question with a simple "Yes" or "No" answer...

Is Osama Bin Laden a muslim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

 

[.lava]

Before I do a little research and post my results, just to be clear, are you claiming you do not know if Bin Laden is a muslim?

being Muslim is not like nationality. you can't research it on the net or papers. you really must go in to his mind to find out. but of course, actions speak loader than words. that's the data i use when i analyze people

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[sonofskeptish]

being Muslim is not like nationality. you can't research it on the net or papers. you really must go in to his mind to find out. but of course, actions speak loader than words. that's the data i use when i analyze people.

Yes, actions speak louder than words...

Muslims around the world were asked their "confidence" level in Osama Bin Laden, the question worded as follows:

"Now I'm going to read a list of political leaders. For each, tell me how much confidence you have in each leader to do the right thing regarding world affairs - a lot of confidence, some confidence, not too much confidence, or no confidence at all. Osama bin Laden."

Yup, the results say a lot about the muslim mindset...

Compare Predominantly Muslim Countries on Confidence in Osama bin Laden - Pew Global Attitudes Project Key Indicators Database

I have no desire to go into each muslim mind to find out if they are a muslim. I figure just asking them is best, and I'm confident Osama Bin Laden would tell me he is a muslim. And sorry, I cannot take his version of Islam less seriously than your version.

 

[.lava]

Yes, actions speak louder than words...

Muslims around the world were asked their "confidence" level in Osama Bin Laden, the question worded as follows:

"Now I'm going to read a list of political leaders. For each, tell me how much confidence you have in each leader to do the right thing regarding world affairs - a lot of confidence, some confidence, not too much confidence, or no confidence at all. Osama bin Laden."

The results surprise even me...

Compare Predominantly Muslim Countries on Confidence in Osama bin Laden - Pew Global Attitudes Project Key Indicators Database

i find that rather funny. people who would support such a man in Turkey is way too little. matter of fact many would oppose him very strongly and condemn him for giving a bad name to Islam. simply because that is exactly what he did. though there are certain neighbourhoods where certain minorities live. in case they make this so-called interview in that neighbourhood, percentage would appear to be "surprising". i would also assume some people would support him only because USA made him a leader and USA keeps bombing Muslim nations

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[.lava]

I have no desire to go into each muslim mind to find out if they are a muslim. I figure just asking them is best, and I'm confident Osama Bin Laden would tell me he is a muslim. And sorry, I cannot take his version of Islam less seriously than your version.

of course he would. i take everything seriously, specially the ones that kill people. nothing wrong with that. but as you see, my knowledge that comes from Qur'an made it impossible for me to follow him, trust him, love him and respect him. if this guy is still alive and powerful, that's thanks to what USA does in Middle East. i think this is fact and it should be taken seriously as well

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[sonofskeptish]

i find that rather funny. people who would support such a man in Turkey is way too little. matter of fact many would oppose him very strongly and condemn him for giving a bad name to Islam. simply because that is exactly what he did. though there are certain neighbourhoods where certain minorities live. in case they make this so-called interview in that neighbourhood, percentage would appear to be "surprising". i would also assume some people would support him only because USA made him a leader and USA keeps bombing Muslim nations

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But he is a strict follower of a version of Islam and therefore a muslim of some kind, as he himself would tell me.

My issue is not with Islam, it's with moderates of any kind that try to claim fundementalist, extremist or puritan elements within their faith are not members of that faith.

While maybe nicer, and more peaceful, moderates have no right to claim that their "less nice" counterparts are not members of that overall faith.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I don't think I would call Bin Laden a Muslim. The Quran says not to make mischief in the earth, or make war unless an enemy makes war with you first. So there you have it from the Quran itself- former Muslim

 

[sonofskeptish]

I don't think I would call Bin Laden a Muslim. The Quran says not to make mischief in the earth, or make war unless an enemy makes war with you first. So there you have it from the Quran itself- former Muslim

Thank you, I'll take that as a no. But your no longer a muslim

Seriously though, as an ex muslim, perhaps you can help me understand something... is there something in the muslim faith which makes one unable to speak out against other muslims, even if they are a more extreme, fundemental variety than oneself? Is there something which causes all muslims of any variety to stick together no matter what?

And please don't say Isreal and the USA

 

[.lava]

But he is a strict follower of a version of Islam and therefore a muslim of some kind, as he himself would tell me.

My issue is not with Islam, it's with moderates of any kind that try to claim fundementalist, extremist or puritan elements within their faith are not members of that faith.

While maybe nicer, and more peaceful, moderates have no right to claim that their "less nice" counterparts are not members of that overall faith.

what version would that be exactly? how could using religion as your tool to commit crime, kill civilians (of course that's assuming he is the grand architect of 9/11) and manipulate people by abusing their hopeless situation as in Iraq make someone "religious" person in your opinion? IMO his name, Bin Laden, nothing but a trade mark after all

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[Rainbow Mage]

Well there is the idea in Islam that Muslims cannot judge anybody, not even non-Muslims, because that would be making yourself god, which is shirk. Muslims believe only god can judge, but as I said, since the Quran warns about hypocrites like Bin Laden I am just quoting what the Quran says.

 

[FaRa13]

You people that ask the question "should we fear islam" have been simply brain washed by the media. You fail to think outside the box and you let others think for you. You are stereotypical and have no first hand accounts. You are "fearing" a religion based on the representation of a small percentage of people. In that case then, I shall open a new thread: "Should I fear leaving my child with a Catholic." hahahahah

 

[kai]

I don't think I would call Bin Laden a Muslim. The Quran says not to make mischief in the earth, or make war unless an enemy makes war with you first. So there you have it from the Quran itself- former Muslim

Bin Laden and others use the justification of self defence , If the ummah is attacked or at war anywhere then the ummah has a right to defend itself. Its a basic Islamic principle which they bend to suit themselves and justify their violence.

 

[Gharib]

See any problem with these two posts?

no problem here, a country that has full sharia implemented does not exist at present. so no problem.

 

[.lava]

Bin Laden and others use the justification of self defence , If the ummah is attacked or at war anywhere then the ummah has a right to defend itself. Its a basic Islamic principle which they bend to suit themselves and justify their violence.

it is also basic Islamic principle not to kill civilians. besides, i don't see how 9/11 is self-defense

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[Gharib]

I do fear unpredictability. I would not take a hug from a muslim that knew me beneath the surface, even if they were a friend. I would fear that Allah whispered in their ear that I was worthy of death, and that they could always be hiding a knife behind their back.

That is a sad way to feel.

*edit* this isn't particularly a unique feeling to muslims, but anyone who's beliefs condemn me, combined with a fundie mindset.

no need to feel that way. the islamic nation ruled by a caliph does not exist. no muslim is allowed to take the law into his/her own hands. if you are a homosexual then no need to worry. the only thing you should fear is ignorance. thats what kills people.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Islamic societies can only kill homosexuals for open public sexual acts anyway, which it also forbids ALL open sexual acts, which I don't think sex needs to be displayed in public period. I think it's inappropriate.- Gay