Solution to homosexuals is by government executions according to Pastor.

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That's not 100% accurate or knowable unless you sometimes pry into inappropriate questions you don't ask without being called rude, and it doesn't work 100% of the time when children are born.

I am not talking about knowing anything or asking anyone anything. It seems you just want a fight.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The correct word doesn't need to reference someone's sex or chromosomes, that's the underlying assumption here and I'm not assuming the worst, I'm noting that your fixation you've already brought up appears to be about someones private parts and not their lived experience and understanding of man and woman as more than those things and generally transcending them in a way

I had a simple question. Seems like many want to start a fight over it. Why? I have no fixation just want to know what an acceptable word is for these concepts. I do not want to be offensive. Why is this somehow bad? I always treat people with respect and call them by what they want to be called.

 

[ppp]

I am not talking about pronouns or someone's name.

@Clizby Wampuscat :

A man can have a vagina or a man can have a penis. So how do we differentiate the differences?

@Policy :

To what end? How is someone telling me their pronouns substantially different from telling me their name?

To what end?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Ah got it now, you don't think a penis or vagina is a biological indicator of sex. Now I see where you're rationale is unravelling.

That is not what I said. I am simply asking what to call a person born with a penis or born with a vagina. I have already got my answer.

A more clear example of the need for formal accurate and timely sex education in schools, is hard to imagine.

You strawman me and then insult me. Wonderful.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The point you keep missing is you'd need to learn how they prefer to be addressed long before you know which sex organs they may have, if indeed you ever get to know.

You are straw manning me. This is not what I am talking about at all. I could care less if a person has a penis or vagina.

This is why several posters are explaining to you that your question was nonsensical. Yet you seem to be obsessed with getting a specific answer, when the question doesn't offer enough information, since sex organs alone do not determine gender pronouns, as has been explained.

I have never said in any of my posts that gender and sex are the same. I have never said sex organs determine gender. I have asked one question, and that is it. You are reading into my question and assuming tings about me that are untrue. I couldn't care less what any adult does with their body. They have the right to do whatever they want and the right to be called whatever they choose. I have never said anything different.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Read the post, take note of the word assumption, an inherent assumption need not be stated explicitly, nor did the post suggest you had done so.



Yes, but asking facile question on a sensitive subject might give them the appearance of being loaded. Your question had the inherent assumption that one could know what to call someone based solely on their sex organs, when this is not the case. Like asking what do I call someone with red hair? It makes no sense.



Indeed, now imagine you're part of a tiny persecuted minority, whose visual appearance invites the worst kind of negative judgments from many people. Nor do I imagine for one minute that is that the sum total of what trans people suffer. In fact I find it hard to imagine the pain of gender dysphoria, but I can at least empathise with the suffering of others.

You are basically saying asking sincere questions about sensitive topics is not allowed in our society anymore. You seem to want everyone to shut up and never ask questions. How do you think bigotry will change unless we can ask questions about the topic? Assuming things about other people without asking them what they think is a dishonest debate tactic. Just ask me what I think if you think I have bigoted views. Just don't assume I do.

 

[samtonga43]

Nope. I am was following your implication.

You really think that, “I want to get to know you”, implies that she/he wanted to jump into bed with her/him? Or maybe you are assuming that I was implying that, ‘getting to know you’ = jumping into bed. If so, it’s time you thought outside your box.

And how would that offend someone?

Use your imagination. One does not have to be a bigot to feel offended if, having just met someone, one is asked what pronouns she/he uses. And whichever pronouns you use, I ‘m sorry for your partner/s if you think that getting to know them means ‘jumping into bed’. That’s really sad…

By the way, when you do not finish your thoughts fully others have to finish them for you. That is not strawmanning, that is an indication of a flawed post by you.

Nope. It indicates that you are building strawmen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Let's see:
Leslie and Lesley are introduced to each other at a party. They spend some time together and then one L says to the other, "I'm going to tell my best friend how attractive you are, and how much I want to get to know you. So, which pronouns should I use? Are you 'she' or 'he'?

Yeah, I've never known it to be at the end, more at the beginning as a part of the introductions (amd even in California I've only seen this not even a few times).

 

[ppp]

Use your imagination. One does not have to be a bigot to feel offended if, having just met someone, one is asked what pronouns she/he uses.

Maybe I don't have much imagination. On what grounds would someone who is not bigoted be offended?

I ‘m sorry for your partner/s if you think that getting to know them means ‘jumping into bed’. That’s really sad…

What would make that sad?

 

[ppp]

Yeah, I've never known it to be at the end, more at the beginning as a part of the introductions (amd even in California I've only seen this not even a few times).

Same. And here in North Carolina.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You really think that, “I want to get to know you”, implies that she/he wanted to jump into bed with her/him? Or maybe you are assuming that I was implying that, ‘getting to know you’ = jumping into bed. If so, it’s time you thought outside your box.

Use your imagination. One does not have to be a bigot to feel offended if, having just met someone, one is asked what pronouns she/he uses. And whichever pronouns you use, I ‘m sorry for your partner/s if you think that getting to know them means ‘jumping into bed’. That’s really sad…

Nope. It indicates that you are building strawmen.

Oh my. Massive failure. As usual when you are wrong you try to shift the burden of proof and duck and dodge.

Try again. You can do better.

 

[Sheldon]

That is not what I said. I am simply asking what to call a person born with a penis or born with a vagina. I have already got my answer.

You've had literally dozens of answers, and ignored them all. Not sure how many different ways it can be explained to you that a penis or vagina is not always going to be enough information to accurately attach a gender pronoun to someone.

You strawman me and then insult me. Wonderful.

There was no straw man, and while my comment was sarcastic it was aimed at your post.

 

[Sheldon]

You are straw manning me.

Nope, why you keep making this up I have no idea.

This is not what I am talking about at all. I could care less if a person has a penis or vagina.

You have spent days and dozens of posts asking what we should call people with those sex organs, so this is spectacularly silly.

I have never said in any of my posts that gender and sex are the same.

Now that's a straw man, as I have never claimed you have said this. Only pointed out that they differ, as your question makes no sense because of this fact.

I have never said sex organs determine gender. I have asked one question, and that is it.

Don't be obtuse, your question was what should we call people who have a penis or vagina, in a debate that has been about gender pronouns for many days now.

You are reading into my question and assuming tings about me that are untrue.

I have assumed nothing about you, only made observations about your question. The rest you have simply imagined.

I couldn't care less what any adult does with their body.

Cool, but then I never remotely said you did, so another straw man.

They have the right to do whatever they want and the right to be called whatever they choose. I have never said anything different.

Great, but why are you telling me, I've not remotely suggested you think otherwise? None of this makes your question any less facile or nonsensical. Like asking what should we call someone with feet?

 

[Sheldon]

You are basically saying asking sincere questions about sensitive topics is not allowed in our society anymore.

Have you been drinking? I have not remotely said any such thing, nor implied it either, this is a debate forum, it is the place to ask questions.

You seem to want everyone to shut up and never ask questions.

What a preposterous straw man?

How do you think bigotry will change unless we can ask questions about the topic?

Sigh, I never remotely told anyone nor suggested to anyone they couldn't ask questions, only pointed out that your question was facile to the point of being nonsensical, instead of addressing that you have attacked me with a dizzying string of straw man claims.

Assuming things about other people without asking them what they think is a dishonest debate tactic.

You owe me one irony meter.

Just ask me what I think if you think I have bigoted views. Just don't assume I do.

I have assumed nothing, and merely pointed out your question is nonsensical as a person's sex organs are not enough information on which to decide "what we call someone" which is what you have been demanding everyone answer for page after page. You have entirely ignored the content of my post to denigrate me with straw man claims, whilst falsely accusing me of the same, this is just bizarre.

How hard can it be to understand that having a penis or a vagina is not enough information on its own, to know how we should accurately address someone? Or defend your position if you think this isn't true, but please stop falsely playing the victim with endless straw man claims I have not remotely made.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am not talking about knowing anything or asking anyone anything. It seems you just want a fight.

No, I'm trying to show how going by genitals doesn't work out fully well. For various reasons it falls short and cannot be 100% accurate or reliable. Disease, accident, birth, genitalia can be remarkable inaccurate when it comes to such things.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Use your imagination. One does not have to be a bigot to feel offended if, having just met someone, one is asked what pronouns she/he uses.

Why would you get offended? I think it's weird when I'm asked, because it's new and unusual and not a normal thing in my life, but that's just me and I can easily overstep this petty hangup.

 

[muichimotsu]

I had a simple question. Seems like many want to start a fight over it. Why? I have no fixation just want to know what an acceptable word is for these concepts. I do not want to be offensive. Why is this somehow bad? I always treat people with respect and call them by what they want to be called.

It's more the acceptable context, because unless you're an andrologist or gynecologist and it's a scenario that warrants that question, it's no more your business than asking someone if they're left or right handed (or ambidextrous even), because that generally doesn't apply or matter in how we interact with people. We wouldn't ask people if they're a sex worker or a drag queen or direct pornography, but some people, even well intentioned, can fall prey to gender essentialism of some sort, which appears to be part of the issue in the overall discussion.

Wanting to properly refer to people in terms of their pronouns should be sufficient unless it has suddenly become so important we have to make the distinction beyond what already exists for cis and trans men/women. Male/female/intersex are pertinent, especially the 3rd one given what it can entail for personal gender identity, but again, it's quite likely over one's lifetime that we all would likely have met someone who's intersex and even more likely to have met someone who's transgender

 

[samtonga43]

Oh my. Massive failure. As usual when you are wrong you try to shift the burden of proof and duck and dodge.

Put your money where your mouth is. Where did I try to shift the burden of proof? Where did I duck and dodge?

Try to back up your lame accusations.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Put your money where your mouth is. Where did I try to shift the burden of proof? Where did I duck and dodge?

Try to back up your lame accusations.

I asked you a reasonable question. You ran away from it. In fact you wanted me to do something where probably would have used a false claim of strawman argument.

Why didn't you answer my reasonable question?

 

[samtonga43]

Why would you get offended? I think it's weird when I'm asked, because it's new and unusual and not a normal thing in my life, but that's just me and I can easily overstep this petty hangup.

Lesley is looking beautiful and she knows it. She is attracted to Leslie, and hopes he feels the same about her. She is confused when he suddenly says, "What are your pronouns, Lesley ... She, He, They...?"

To Lesley, this sounds as if Leslie can't tell if she is male or female.

Tell me, Shadow Wolf, can you understand that there really are people who may feel offended by this? (This is the only point I have been making)

You think it's weird.
Lesley thinks it's rude.

You are both entitled to your reactions.