South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Revoltingest]

Yea. You probably shouldn't have initiated that then.

I only responded to your claim that the amendments
after the 10th granted no rights. And to your
ignorance of the 9th Amendment. Have you ever
noticed that every time you're arrested, they read
you your rights? It's one of those non-enumerated
rights.

You really should read the Constitution.
It's pretty illuminating.
Oh, I also recommend reading about various legal
theories of how to apply it. They range from
confirming to interesting to infuriating.

 

[Revoltingest]

Too many people have already noticed that air of self conceit and self assurance....

It gives me a warm feeling to
be appreciated by so many.
My secret....
Don't make ignorant claims.

 

[icehorse]

Your posts aren't confusing.
Just evasive.
In case you haven't noticed,
I'm backing off for now.
(It's become uninteresting.)

you're busted! we're all enjoying your tap dancing routine though

 

[Revoltingest]

you're busted! we're all enjoying your tap dancing routine though

Jealous!
@Wirey & I can out-dance & out-prance everyone else on RF.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Didn't we answer that in recent debates? The phenotypical sex only develops during pregnancy. Without hormonal influences every XY male would only express female characteristics. See Androgen insensitivity syndrome - Wikipedia.

So, yes, at conception you were "female" and only developed male anatomy later in the pregnancy.

And this is actually visible in utero AND on the male body after birth -- the "perineal rafe" is a visible line or ridge of tissue on the body that extends from the anus through the perineum to scrotum (male) or labia majora (female). It is found in both males and females, arises from the fusion of the urogenital folds, and is visible running medial through anteroposterior, to the anus where it resolves in a small knot of skin of varying size.

In males, this structure continues through the midline of the scrotum (scrotal raphe) and upwards through the posterior midline aspect of the penis (penile raphe). It also exists deeper through the scrotum where it is called the scrotal septum. It is the result of a fetal developmental phenomenon whereby the scrotum and penis close toward the midline and fuse.

All human individuals—whether they have an XX, an XY, or an atypical sex chromosome combination—begin development from the same starting point. During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But you also remember someone educating him about the condition and explaining fetal development?

Yup.

 

[Revoltingest]

And this is actually visible in utero AND on the male body after birth -- the "perineal rafe" is a visible line or ridge of tissue on the body that extends from the anus through the perineum to scrotum (male) or labia majora (female). It is found in both males and females, arises from the fusion of the urogenital folds, and is visible running medial through anteroposterior, to the anus where it resolves in a small knot of skin of varying size.

In males, this structure continues through the midline of the scrotum (scrotal raphe) and upwards through the posterior midline aspect of the penis (penile raphe). It also exists deeper through the scrotum where it is called the scrotal septum. It is the result of a fetal developmental phenomenon whereby the scrotum and penis close toward the midline and fuse.

All human individuals—whether they have an XX, an XY, or an atypical sex chromosome combination—begin development from the same starting point. During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female.

All fake news.
The Bible is the only true biology text.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

you're busted! we're all enjoying your tap dancing routine though

You is not we.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Again, it seems as though you're willing to subject confused gay kids to sterilization "in case" they're actually trans, and "in case" - without evidence - drugs and surgeries might make them feel better? How is this compassionate?

I am not willing to "subject" anyone to anything, I am uninterested in that sort of force. And this is an error you continually make: affirmative care is a lengthy process, wherein both the gender dysphoric and their care-givers explore what is likely to be the best sort of care.

Better mental health found among transgender people who started hormones as teens

Transgender adults who started gender-affirming hormone therapy as teens had better mental health than those who waited until adulthood or wanted the treatment but never received it, a Stanford-led study found.

med.stanford.edu

January 12, 2022 - By Erin Digitale​

​

For transgender people, starting gender-affirming hormone treatment in adolescence is linked to better mental health than waiting until adulthood, according to new research led by the Stanford University School of Medicine.​

​

The study, which appeared online Jan. 12 in PLOS ONE, drew on data from the largest-ever survey of U.S. transgender adults, a group of more than 27,000 people who responded in 2015. The new study found that transgender people who began hormone treatment in adolescence had fewer thoughts of suicide, were less likely to experience major mental health disorders and had fewer problems with substance abuse than those who started hormones in adulthood. The study also documented better mental health among those who received hormones at any age than those who desired but never received the treatment.​

​

Gender-affirming hormone treatment with estrogen or testosterone can help bring a transgender person’s physical characteristics in line with their gender identity. In adolescence, hormone therapy can enable a transgender teenager to go through puberty in a way that matches their gender identity.​

​

“This study is particularly relevant now because many state legislatures are introducing bills that would outlaw this kind of care for transgender youth,” said Jack Turban, MD, a postdoctoral scholar in pediatric and adolescent psychiatry at Stanford Medicine. “We are adding to the evidence base that shows why gender-affirming care is beneficial from a mental health perspective.”​

​

Turban is the study’s lead author. The senior author is Alex Keuroghlian, MD, associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and director of the National LGBTQIA+ Health Education Center at the Fenway Institute.​

 

[Heyo]

I understand that there are rare conditions like the ones your mentioning. How is that relevant?

1. It shows that sex is not binary and not determined by your chromosomes.
2. It is one indication that sex develops during pregnancy (and thus answers your question about sex being determined at conception, it's not) and that, together with the knowledge about developmental phases, perceived sex and phenotypical sex can be different.
3. From #1 and #2 and the fact that the bill doesn't take these into account, it is clear that the bill is discriminating at least against individuals who have these conditions and thus may be unconstitutional. At least, it is bigoted.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Show me where abortion is listed.

That is the entire point of the 9th Amendment! Sheesh!

Abortion is problematic only because some people insist on calling a foetus a "baby," which it is not. There is no right to murder a baby. But nothing can protect a foetus against a spontaneous miscarriage, so to suppose the foetus has a "right" against that is nonsense. The question of abortion, then, is not one that concerns the foetus, but the mother -- and whether she is the arbiter of her own body and health, physical and mental.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you understand what the 9th amendment means?

Clearly not.

 

[icehorse]

And this is an error you continually make: affirmative care is a lengthy process, wherein both the gender dysphoric and their care-givers explore what is likely to be the best sort of care.

Several concerns:

First, the very label "affirmative care" is problematic. When a person goes to talk therapy it's the role of the therapist to determine of the patient has a condition, and if so, what that condition is. But trans activists have twisted that practice. In the case of kids with GD, the idea is that the therapist "affirms" that the kid is trans. That approach is riddled with bias problems.

Second, yes, in the ideal world a kid with GD would go thru a lengthy, thoughtful, unrushed process. But sadly, that's often not the case.

Third, how does that kid get into therapy in the first place if the parents are deliberately kept out of the loop that their kid as GD?

==

I will have to look into the study you provided. On first glance it runs counter to other studies I've read and I question how (and if) actual control groups were used. But this is just my first impression, I have to study the study more thoroughly.

One thing I can say though is the the language you provided is tainted with gender ideology language, and gender ideology is - at this point- not science.

 

[icehorse]

1. It shows that sex is not binary and not determined by your chromosomes.

I disagree, but how are you defining "sex"?

2. It is one indication that sex develops during pregnancy (and thus answers your question about sex being determined at conception, it's not) and that, together with the knowledge about developmental phases, perceived sex and phenotypical sex can be different.

I have never made any claims about phenotypical sex. I person can look like one sex but be the opposite sex.

3. From #1 and #2 and the fact that the bill doesn't take these into account, it is clear that the bill is discriminating at least against individuals who have these conditions and thus may be unconstitutional. At least, it is bigoted.

Or it could be that the bill is designed to save confused, gay kids with GD from unnecessary sterilization.

No laws are perfect. Many laws are based on utilitarian premises, what's the best approach for the most people. There are far more gay people than trans people. A law should not throw many gay people under the bus to - perhaps - benefit a few trans people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Or it could be that the bill is designed to save confused, gay kids with GD from unnecessary sterilization.

So apparently you never grow tired if being called out.
Quit weaponizing children! You want to ridicule us but what you are doing is very low.
Also, for the billionth time, medical transition takes time you can't just go to tye doctor amd get everything then an there. If you knew the actual process and policies and how things are done you'd know why your "concerns" are misplaced fantasies. You'd be better off discouraging arthroscropes and nunerous routine knee surgeries (as they lack evidence to support their routine use).

 

[icehorse]

Quit weaponizing children!

Hmmm. I'm advocating to NOT subject confused young kids to unproven, dangerous, irreversible medical interventions with a lifetime of medical complications and dependencies, and I'M the one weaponizing kids? hahahaha.

Also, for the billionth time, medical transition takes time you can't just go to tye doctor amd get everything then an there. If you knew the actual process and policies and how things are done you'd know why your "concerns" are misplaced fantasies.

If even - for the sake of discussion - the process was always lengthy and thoughtful (which, to be clear I think is not true), you're still left with a HUGE issue:

When you start a kid on these drugs and maybe surgeries, the odds are that you're inflicting a dangerous life sentence on them for no reason.

The reality is that the best cure for GD is puberty.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hmmm. I'm advocating to NOT subject confused young kids to unproven, dangerous, irreversible medical interventions with a lifetime of medical complications and dependencies, and I'M the one weaponizing kids? hahahaha.

You are assuming the majority are confused and gay (that's a very old myth uoheld by transohobes) and revealing your abyss of ignorance regarding the subject in it's entirety.
8f this were the 1920s you'd have a valid point as the medical research then was new. But this is 2020 and the research has improved and the methods and screenings for treatment fine tuned to the point very few regret transistioning. This is because (you may want to sit because you've indicated arw unaware if this) clinicians are aware that for a variety of reasons, such as confounding mental health complications or symptoms not severe enough and dont recommend everyone for treatment. MtF or FtM, those who actually get genital surgery are rare.

 

[Heyo]

I disagree, but how are you defining "sex"?

a) genetic sex (which isn't binary)
b) phenotypical sex, usually this is what is assigned at birth (which also isn't binary)
c) experienced sex (what a person thinks their sex should be) (and it's not binary
d) gender, a role assigned by society

I have never made any claims about phenotypical sex. I person can look like one sex but be the opposite sex.

So you are defining sex purely by chromosomes? What if the assigned sex at birth isn't congruent with the genetic sex? Is gender-affirming care OK then? How is that implemented in the bill?

Or it could be that the bill is designed to save confused, gay kids with GD from unnecessary sterilization.

No laws are perfect. Many laws are based on utilitarian premises, what's the best approach for the most people. There are far more gay people than trans people. A law should not throw many gay people under the bus to - perhaps - benefit a few trans people.

No laws would indeed be perfect for this topic. Gender dysphoria is already a topic that only affects very few people. Don't try to tell me that the bill is to "protect" the very few people who might, possibly, benefit from it. (And that is questionable, at least.)
The bill is a power demonstration, nothing more.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If even - for the sake of discussion - the process was always lengthy and thoughtful (which, to be clear I think is not true), you're still left with a HUGE issue:

When you start a kid on these drugs and maybe surgeries, the odds are that you're inflicting a dangerous life sentence on them for no reason.

The reality is that the best cure for GD is puberty.

Puberty doesn't cure GD, and makes GD tremendously worse for those with GD.
Here's another thing you don't know. To qualify for surgery you have to have been in continuous psychological care, you have to have been living as your identitified sex fir at least a year, and you have to have two letters of recommendations from two separate therapists who themselves must meet certain criteria.
How you portray things is as it was many decades ago when failed transition and regret was so high John Hopkins closed its program. But the Standards of Care were developed amd have been fine tuned over the decades and now transitions a rarely a failure or regreted.

 

[icehorse]

Turban is the study’s lead author. The senior author is Alex Keuroghlian, MD, associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and director of the National LGBTQIA+ Health Education Center at the Fenway Institute.

It took some digging to find the actual study. But here's an excerpt:

To date, there have been six longitudinal cohort studies examining the impact of GAH initiation during adolescence on mental health [12–17]. These studies have generally found improvement in mental healh following adolescent GAH initiation, including decreases in internalizing psychopathology, improved general wellbeing, and decreased suicidality. Of note, these studies did not include a comparison group of adolescents who did not access GAH. Furthermore, these studies did not examine separately those who initiated GAH during early or late adolescence, nor did they compare initiation of GAH during adolescence with initiation of GAH during adulthood.

In other words the researchers didn't have a control group. This is consistent with the idea that puberty - maybe with some counseling - also frequently cures GD.

Another point is that this study seems influenced by activists, because it's rife with activist language.

For example it talks about gender identity. Is gender identity anything more than a feeling a person has?