South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[icehorse]

Puberty doesn't cure GD, and makes GD tremendously worse for those with GD.
Here's another thing you don't know. To qualify for surgery you have to have been in continuous psychological care, you have to have been living as your identitified sex fir at least a year, and you have to have two letters of recommendations from two separate therapists who themselves must meet certain criteria.
How you portray things is as it was many decades ago when failed transition and regret was so high John Hopkins closed its program. But the Standards of Care were developed amd have been fine tuned over the decades and now transitions a rarely a failure or regreted.

Show me studies that used control groups.

As for regret, man I wish we had a time machine. Dollars to donuts, in the years to come we will see an avalanche of lawsuits filed by people with regret. In some states the statute of limitation was recently extended, and lawyers are advising doctors to back away from GAC because they know that 10 or 15 years down the road, GAC is going to get buried in lost lawsuits.

 

[icehorse]

a) genetic sex (which isn't binary)
b) phenotypical sex, usually this is what is assigned at birth (which also isn't binary)
c) experienced sex (what a person thinks their sex should be) (and it's not binary
d) gender, a role assigned by society

You seem to be conflating sex and gender here, is that correct?

In any case, I'm mostly concerned with your category "a", and for all intents and purposes, your claim is wrong. The fact that there are a few rare individuals with medical conditions does not mean that sex is not binary. Sex is binary.

So you are defining sex purely by chromosomes? What if the assigned sex at birth isn't congruent with the genetic sex? Is gender-affirming care OK then? How is that implemented in the bill?

My reading of the bill is that it's limited to kids who "feel" GD. I do not think it addresses the rare, intersex sorts of conditions you're bringing up.

No laws would indeed be perfect for this topic. Gender dysphoria is already a topic that only affects very few people. Don't try to tell me that the bill is to "protect" the very few people who might, possibly, benefit from it. (And that is questionable, at least.)
The bill is a power demonstration, nothing more.

Thousands of kids are experiencing GD. Many of them can only be hurt (for a lifetime) and not helped, if they go thru GAC drugs.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Show me studies that used control groups.

There's A LOT of solid research that doesn't use them. You're insisting they must be used is no different than a YEC saying "it's just a theory."
Go learn about science and research.

As for regret, man I wish we had a time machine. Dollars to donuts, in the years to come we will see an avalanche of lawsuits filed by people with regret. In some states the statute of limitation was recently extended, and lawyers are advising doctors to back away from GAC because they know that 10 or 15 years down the road, GAC is going to get buried in lost lawsuits.

Nope. This stuff isn't new. If it was going to happen 10 to 15 years from now it would have happenes now or 10 to 20 years ago.
Just more of you saying you don't know the history and refusing to learn when corrected.

 

[icehorse]

There's A LOT of solid research that doesn't use them.

When it's possible to use control groups, that leads to far more useful results.

In this case, control groups would be easy to use.

Nope. This stuff isn't new. If it was going to happen 10 to 15 years from now it would have happenes now or 10 to 20 years ago.

GAC is only 12 or 13 years old, it started in the Netherlands. That's what we're talking about in this thread. What's also important to remember is that the number of kids coming forward with GD has EXPLODED in the last few years. Another factor is that even people in their 20s are still developing cognitive capabilities. So no, mathematically it's still quite possible (and I think very likely), that we'll see a wave of regret in the next few years.

Just more of you saying you don't know the history and refusing to learn when corrected.

You just can't stick to debating the ideas can you, ffs?

 

[Laniakea]

A good example of what happens when little kids are put through these abusive procedures is Chloe Cole. Doctors cut off her breasts when she was only 12 years old. She is now a "de-transitioner" at age 19, and is speaking out about what she was put through.

 

[Koldo]

Here's another link - I've added it to my list:

For parents Archives - Sex Matters

Here are all our publications with advice and guidance for parents. See also our updates, publications and external resources on healthcare (including healthcare for gender-confused children) and schools and safeguarding.

sex-matters.org

I didn't find any link to a meta-study there.

 

[icehorse]

I didn't find any link to a meta-study there.

Not directly, no. But if i recall, it's in the "teenagers, part 2" report.

 

[Koldo]

you watched the videos?

Anyway, here's one such analysis:

Interim report – Cass Review

cass.independent-review.uk

Your link doesn't support sticking solely to talk therapy.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have never made any claims about phenotypical sex. I person can look like one sex but be the opposite sex.

Isn't that interesting -- you accept that a person can "look" like one sex but be the opposite, yet you balk at the notion that a person can "feel" like one sex but be the opposite (phenotypically).

No laws are perfect. Many laws are based on utilitarian premises, what's the best approach for the most people. There are far more gay people than trans people. A law should not throw many gay people under the bus to - perhaps - benefit a few trans people.

As a gay person myself, I have never felt that I was "thrown under the bus" because a trans person is getting the care they need.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Clearly not.

You're in Canada what do you know?

 

[Twilight Hue]

That is the entire point of the 9th Amendment! Sheesh!

Abortion is problematic only because some people insist on calling a foetus a "baby," which it is not. There is no right to murder a baby. But nothing can protect a foetus against a spontaneous miscarriage, so to suppose the foetus has a "right" against that is nonsense. The question of abortion, then, is not one that concerns the foetus, but the mother -- and whether she is the arbiter of her own body and health, physical and mental.

That wouldn't be a problem provided the fetus cannot feel pain. The mother has no right to inflict pain on an organism that is independent of herself in that regard.

I think abortion can be allowed up to that point.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It took some digging to find the actual study. But here's an excerpt:



In other words the researchers didn't have a control group. This is consistent with the idea that puberty - maybe with some counseling - also frequently cures GD.

Another point is that this study seems influenced by activists, because it's rife with activist language.

For example it talks about gender identity. Is gender identity anything more than a feeling a person has?

Don't expect such people to do any actual and proper science when they have an activist agenda to put forward.

 

[icehorse]

Your link doesn't support sticking solely to talk therapy.

Correct, it's focused on the idea that the evidence that drugs / surgeries are effective is of low quality.

At this point, I could make the claim that talk therapy is more effective than drugs / surgeries, and there is no high quality evidence to refute that claim.

Now, I think that claim is true, especially over the lifetime of the patients. But let's say that they are equally effective. That gets us back to the question:

What's the goal of any of these interventions in the first place?

I promise I will tell you what I think the goal is, but I'd like to hear your answer first.

 

[icehorse]

Isn't that interesting -- you accept that a person can "look" like one sex but be the opposite, yet you balk at the notion that a person can "feel" like one sex but be the opposite (phenotypically).

No balking from me on that point.

So how would to describe this GD thing? Is it a feeling? To what degree do societal stereotypes factor into its intensity?

And I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Koldo:

What's the goal of any of these interventions in the first place?

I promise I will tell you what I think the goal is, but I'd like to hear your answer first.

As a gay person myself, I have never felt that I was "thrown under the bus" because a trans person is getting the care they need.

Sigh. It's not about adults like you, it's about kids.

Imagine this: You listen to hours and hours and hours of therapy sessions with a young boy who has GD. After some hours of listening you are convinced that this boy is just gay, and all of his struggles around sexuality are really just about learning to feel awesome about being gay. Now you learn that the decision has been made to take this boy thru the entire GAC protocol.

Having come to know this gay boy, how do you feel about the fact that the plan is to castrate hence sterilize this boy?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In this case, control groups would be easy to use.

Or it means you actually spend some time learning how research works, the various methods, and why control groups aren't always an option.

 

[icehorse]

Or it means you actually spend some time learning how research works, the various methods, and why control groups aren't always an option.

And I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Koldo:
What's the goal of any of these interventions in the first place?
I promise I will tell you what I think the goal is, but I'd like to hear your answer first.

 

[Koldo]

Not directly, no. But if i recall, it's in the "teenagers, part 2" report.

Thanks, I read it. It actually contains quite little data. What I was interested into looking is whether fully transitioning had a significant effect on those people, but that wasn't covered. I don't expect hormone therapy/blockers to solve the problem by themselves. It is not like they switch the gonads.

 

[Koldo]

Correct, it's focused on the idea that the evidence that drugs / surgeries are effective is of low quality.

At this point, I could make the claim that talk therapy is more effective than drugs / surgeries, and there is no high quality evidence to refute that claim.

Is there high quality evidence to support it though?

Now, I think that claim is true, especially over the lifetime of the patients. But let's say that they are equally effective. That gets us back to the question:

What's the goal of any of these interventions in the first place?

I promise I will tell you what I think the goal is, but I'd like to hear your answer first.

Whose goal specifically?
There are different agents with different goals. The patient is seeking to align their physical appearance with their gender.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I promise I will tell you what I think the goal is

I couldn't possible care one bit what you think if the subject. You're a layman with an obviously poor understanding of research methods who wants to weaponize kids amd refuse legit sources to learn how a medical transition happens.
Why should I even care.

What's the goal of any of these interventions in the first place?

It's the samw as any other treatment. You'd know this if you had a shred of the knowledge you claim to have.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is there high quality evidence to support it though?

About every major medical origination has this evidence and data.