South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[SkepticThinker]

Sexuality and gender are two separate categories. What is the scientific breakthrough that changed the mind of the APA in 2012? How are they not simply holding their finger to the wind?

No kidding. My point of contention with your post is that the decision is/was politically motivated. I'm pointing out that people claimed the same thing about homosexuality in 1973. Of course, it wasn't the case then, and isn't the case now. That's not how the DSM is formulated.

FYI: Gender dysphoria actually used to be referred to as "transsexualism" in the DSM-III, then replaced with "gender identity disorder" in the DSM-IV, then finally changed to "gender dysphoria" and "gender dysphoria in children" in the DSM-5 in 2013.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You mean Gender Identity Disorder, right? It seems like Psychiatry decided then in 2012 that a young person identifying as trans should no longer be given a red light but a yellow light. Since then, the yellow light is turning more into a green light.

I will ask again: are trans activists affirming young tomboys as females and young, effeminate boys as males? Is that part of the agenda? Doesn’t seem like it to me. Anybody who does do that they call a bigot.

Are these young tomboys and effeminate boys who now identify as trans better off for it? They get short term meaning through a community which showers them in celebratory affirmation, but young people don’t have the wisdom to know that this type of meaning doesn’t sustain because there’s no lasting meaning derived from gender identity.

Are you under the impression that psychiatrists and doctors are absolute morons?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Nice try.

This was in response to, "That's why it's best to butt out, leave it alone, and let patients and caretakers decide instead if you and politicians."

So ... you disagree? Whose hands should it be in, then?? Random internet dudes who don't know what they're talking about? Who?

 

[icehorse]

No, that is exactly what it means. The very existence of intersex people demonstrates that genetic sex is not binary.

Only for the sake of discussion, let's say that biological sex is not binary. Now let's consider the story you provided about the 4 year old kid. Was that kid intersex? Did Avery have normal genitalia? Did he have normal chromosomes?

==

As for "diving into surgeries", I understand that that's less frequent than using drugs. But the trans activists would like us to believe that the drugs are safe and reversible, and neither of those things are true.

==

As for the 4 year old "knowing who they were", that just flies in the face of what we know about how cognitive development. It's an anecdote and the evidence it provides is of low quality. I can find you anecdotes that are the opposite of the one you just provided. There is a new documentary out called "Lost Boys" which is all about boys who went through various stages of GAC and who all have massive regret.

Again, there is no high quality evidence that drugs or surgeries improve mental health outcomes.

==

A few posts back I asked several people to answer this question: What's the goal of any of these psychological or medical interventions for kids with GD? What's your answer?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Only for the sake of discussion, let's say that biological sex is not binary. Now let's consider the story you provided about the 4 year old kid. Was that kid intersex? Did Avery have normal genitalia? Did he have normal chromosomes?

It's not, as demonstrated.

Avery wasn't my example of an intersex person. Avery is my example of how GAC care can be effective, and to show that there is more to GAC than cutting off bodies parts and taking drugs.

==

As for "diving into surgeries", I understand that that's less frequent than using drugs. But the trans activists would like us to believe that the drugs are safe and reversible, and neither of those things are true.

I'm not really interested in what your views on "trans activists" are. They seem to be um... skewed.

==

As for the 4 year old "knowing who they were", that just flies in the face of what we know about how cognitive development.

No it doesn't.

"Gender cognition emerges early in life. By 2 years of age, children are often able to identify differences between sexes, and by age 3, most can label their gender with ease[1]. Over the course of the preschool years (ages 3 to 5) children develop an appreciation for gender stability — the notion that gender is stable over the life course[15]. However, preschoolers do not typically recognize gender as an identity, but rather (and primarily) attribute it to external features and appearances[16]. They are highly attuned to gender roles and behaviours, often aligning themselves closely with those of the same gender and expressing preferences for toys or activities that are stereotypically associated with their gender[17]. At this age and stage, displaying gender-atypical behaviour does not necessarily reflect a gender identity that differs from assigned sex[18]. Parents of young children should be encouraged to provide their child with a safe environment for gender exploration that does not make assumptions about future gender identity[19].

By age 6 to 7 years, children begin to appreciate gender as an identity independent of external features. They may start to reduce outward or stereotypical expressions of gender, though they often continue to show affinity for same-gender peers and gender-typed toys and clothing through middle childhood[1][16]. As they move through late childhood and transition into adolescence, a more sophisticated appreciation for gender identity emerges, with pubertal onset being a particularly salient event that may trigger more intensive reflection on the alignment of assigned and experienced gender[20]."

An affirming approach to caring for transgender and gender-diverse youth | Canadian Paediatric Society

Increasing numbers of youth identify as transgender or gender-diverse (TGD). Many paediatricians and primary care providers (PCPs) will encounter this population in their practice, either for gender-related care or general health needs. This statement is intended as a resource to guide...

cps.ca

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1909367116

I can find you anecdotes that are the opposite of the one you just provided.

It's an illustration of something that occurs in reality. It's an example, from a parent, of their experience with their own child of how trans can present itself in children.

There is a new documentary out called "Lost Boys" which is all about boys who went through various stages of GAC and who all have massive regret.

So you complain about my anecdote and provide your own anecdotes.

Again, there is no high quality evidence that drugs or surgeries improve mental health outcomes.

I'm more inclined to go with the experts on this, instead of a random layperson on the internet.

==

A few posts back I asked several people to answer this question: What's the goal of any of these psychological or medical interventions for kids with GD? What's your answer?

Same answer as another poster: To address it and alleviate it. To improve the mental health and well-being of human beings.

 

[Heyo]

We interrupt our program for a little light-hearted entertainment to calm people down and take theirs thoughts off the serious issue.
Enjoy.

 

[icehorse]

Avery wasn't my example of an intersex person. Avery is my example of how GAC care can be effective, and to show that there is more to GAC than cutting off bodies parts and taking drugs.

As I've said repeatedly, talk therapy is fine, it's the irreversible drugs and surgeries that are problems.

By age 6 to 7 years, children begin to appreciate gender as an identity independent of external features.

I just pulled that snippet out of the larger quote. I have no problem agreeing that kids can observe gender and sex related characteristics at an early age. That's a far, far, far cry from understanding the implications of undergoing irreversible interventions. E.g., they've never had an orgasm, how can they possibly decide they don't ever want to?

So you complain about my anecdote and provide your own anecdotes.

You really didn't understand why I provided counter anecdotes? It was NOT to imply in any way that my anecdotes are somehow "better" than yours. It was to demonstrate that small collections of anecdotes provide only low quality evidence.

I'm more inclined to go with the experts on this, instead of a random layperson on the internet.

Makes sense. That's why I've provided so many links to experts

Same answer as another poster: To address it and alleviate it. To improve the mental health and well-being of human beings.

Awesome, and agreed! So what this means is that "gender affirming care" is actually quite the misnomer. We want the kid to feel better, full stop. Any level of "transitioning" is a radical intervention. Even social transitioning has huge consequences. So all of this focus on "transitioning" is putting the cart before the horse. A large percentage of kids who experience GD have absolutely no need to pursue any form of transitioning. Given that that's the case, we ought to have high quality evidence that any form of GAC is effective before we use it.

GAC is always radical, usually has irreversible and dangerous side effects, and there is no high quality evidence of its efficacy.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Are you under the impression that psychiatrists and doctors are absolute morons?

When it comes to understanding the mind, they lack sufficient wisdom.

 

[metis]

When it comes to understanding the mind, they lack sufficient wisdom.

Then who has "sufficient wisdom"?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Trans people report feeling they are in the wrong body, correct? And the stated goals of GAC are to improve mental health and reduce suicidal thoughts and tendencies, correct?

So the goals of ANY of the interventions is to make people feel better. And often talk therapy and time make GD kids feel better.

Again, it seems as though you're willing to subject confused gay kids to sterilization "in case" they're actually trans, and "in case" - without evidence - drugs and surgeries might make them feel better? How is this compassionate?

Every so often, your posts give us a glimpse into your elaborate fantasy version of the real-world situation and it's absolutely fascinating.

I mean, you'll use the same terms as everyone else most of the time, but then you'll drop bombs like "subjecting confused gay kids to sterilization."

When I say "gender-affirming care," do you picture something involving tunnels and hooded figures? I bet it involves tunnels.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When it comes to understanding the mind, they lack sufficient wisdom.

Um no. It's literally what they psychiatrists and psychologists do for a living.

 

[Laniakea]

There are literally hundreds of times more underage cis girls getting breast augmentation than there are trans kids getting radical masectomies. I, as a cisgender girl, had more hormone treatment than trans kids, too. I also had a reduction that wasn't considered medical as a minor.

Standard of care for trans minors is overwhelmingly lifestyle changes, counseling and sometimes hormones. Way less medical intervention than I had.

Without knowing the reason for the medical procedures you endured, it's not possible to do a comparison between your situation and that of young children who are confused about which sex they are (with such confusion often rooted in propaganda fed to them at school).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Without knowing the reason for the medical procedures you endured, it's not possible to do a comparison between your situation and that of young children who are confused about which sex they are (with such confusion often rooted in propaganda fed to them at school).

What propaganda do you think is being "fed to them at school?"

 

[Laniakea]

Yep.
HRT meds are fine with these people as long as it's nothing to do with that gender stuff. Then mysteriously it's unsafe and dangerous.

Just as treatments for Covid that weren't made by the big Pharma companies were "mysteriously it's unsafe and dangerous."

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Um no. It's literally what they psychiatrists and psychologists do for a living.

They are failing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Just as treatments for Covid that weren't made by the big Pharma companies were "mysteriously it's unsafe and dangerous."

No, ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine were unsafe and dangerous.
People actually died from ingesting the latter.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222301853X

 

[SkepticThinker]

They are failing.

No, they're not. They're working on it continuously.

Then people like you come along and complain that they're making political moves every time they refine or amend their findings based on the evidence.

 

[icehorse]

Every so often, your posts give us a glimpse into your elaborate fantasy version of the real-world situation and it's absolutely fascinating.

I mean, you'll use the same terms as everyone else most of the time, but then you'll drop bombs like "subjecting confused gay kids to sterilization."

When I say "gender-affirming care," do you picture something involving tunnels and hooded figures? I bet it involves tunnels.

Even though I don't think you're debating in good faith, I'll respond:

1 - Over and over and over again I have supported talk therapy and criticized drugs and surgeries.
2 - So when I say "sterilized" it should be clear - even to you - that I'm talking about the consequences of these drugs and surgeries.
3 - As a supporter of GAC, don't you think you ought to understand the extensive negative side effects of these interventions?

Or do you prefer to stay in your clueless, dogmatic, woke bubble?

(I can imagine you with your hands over your ears shouting "I'm not listening, I'm not listening..." )

 

[Laniakea]

No, ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine were unsafe and dangerous.
People actually died from ingesting the latter.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222301853X

People died in hospitals while being treated the government-mandated way as well. Remember all the trucks hauling body bagged bodies away?

 

[icehorse]

Are you under the impression that psychiatrists and doctors are absolute morons?

At the risk of being impolite, I'll throw in my two cents:

Doctors are overworked. They do not have time to personally become expert in all of the conditions they are called upon to treat. So they frequently rely on the protocols established by other experts. In this case, GAC originated in the Netherlands, and this so-called "Dutch Protocol" was adopted by other doctors who were facing huge increases in the number of kids experiencing GD. So the whole GAC is a sort of house of cards, built on the Dutch protocol. And across Europe, many doctors who trusted and used the Dutch protocol for years, discovered that it doesn't work. So across Europe, it's being rejected.

Here in North America we'll eventually catch up to Europe. But in the meantime, I hope we can minimize the number of confused GD kids we sterilize needlessly.