South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Even though I don't think you're debating in good faith, I'll respond:

1 - Over and over and over again I have supported talk therapy and criticized drugs and surgeries.
2 - So when I say "sterilized" it should be clear - even to you - that I'm talking about the consequences of these drugs and surgeries.
3 - As a supporter of GAC, don't you think you ought to understand the extensive negative side effects of these interventions?

Or do you prefer to stay in your clueless, dogmatic, woke bubble?

(I can imagine you with your hands over your ears shouting "I'm not listening, I'm not listening..." )

I know you've been told this a few times, so I don't expect you to acknowledge it this time either, but:

- before adolescence, the vast majority of trans kids wouldn’t be prescribed any drugs at all.

- as adolescence approaches, the only drug the vast majority of trans kids would be prescribed are puberty blockers, not anything that would sterilize them. Stop taking the drug and puberty would proceed.

No "confused gay kids" - or any other kids - are getting sterilized and the benefit of the doubt that you were making these sorts of claims because of an honest misunderstanding ran out at least 10 pages ago.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

No, they're not. They're working on it continuously.

Then people like you come along and complain that they're making political moves every time they refine or amend their findings based on the evidence.

To be fair, mainstream religions are failing in this area too. Before a problem can be solved, it’s essential to be honest about it.

 

[icehorse]

I know you've been told this a few times, so I don't expect you to acknowledge it this time either, but:

I love this "you've been told" line. As if that means anything in a debate

- before adolescence, the vast majority of trans kids wouldn’t be prescribed any drugs at all.

How many confused gay kids are you willing to throw under the bus to pursue dangerous interventions with no proven efficacy?

- as adolescence approaches, the only drug the vast majority of trans kids would be prescribed are puberty blockers, not anything that would sterilize them. Stop taking the drug and puberty would proceed.

Puberty might proceed, but other irreversible damage has been done. This whole "it's a safe pause button on puberty" mantra is a dangerous untruth. Just use a little common sense here: Development from birth to adulthood is a massively complex thing with any number of internal systems working in harmony. You really think you can put a few of those systems "on hold" without negatively impacting the entire development process?? Really? Did your pharmaceutical company tell you that?

No "confused gay kids" - or any other kids - are getting sterilized and the benefit of the doubt that you were making these sorts of claims because of an honest misunderstanding ran out at least 10 pages ago.

I referenced a new documentary called "Lost Boys". It's the story of just five such confused gay kids, and yes it's anecdotal in that way, but it's a small look into a broader occurrence.

Many studies have shown that often the cure for GD is allowing the kid to go through puberty. (Absolutely, give such kids talk therapy and love and support during that process.)

So YOU are on the side that's making extraordinary claims, and what YOU'VE BEEN TOLD repeatedly is that you do not have extraordinary evidence to support your claims. And your side IS - in the meantime - sterilizing confused kids. Another data point you'll learn, if you bother to stop just parroting the claims of activists, is that a LOT of these confused young gay kids are also on the autism spectrum. That means that your side's arguments concerning these kids ability to comprehend the lifelong decisions GAC offers is even harder to prove.

 

[libre]

Are you under the impression that psychiatrists and doctors are absolute morons?

They are too busy reading the works of scientists indoctrinated with gender ideology to read the important information that can be found if one looks for queer and feminist groups that explicitly exclude trans people and write long sensationalist blog posts about saving the children.

 

[icehorse]

They are too busy reading the works of scientists indoctrinated with gender ideology to read the important information that can be found if one looks for queer and feminist groups that explicitly exclude trans people and write long sensationalist blog posts about saving the children.

Or wading thru strawman arguments?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Without knowing the reason for the medical procedures you endured, it's not possible to do a comparison between your situation and that of young children who are confused about which sex they are (with such confusion often rooted in propaganda fed to them at school).

It doesn't matter because you don't actually think there's any legitimate reason why a minor is seeking treatment for dysphoria other than 'ignore the dysphoria or conversion therapy.' Just like there are people who are comfortably wrong in the belief that minors would not have any legitimate reason for hormone treatment. Thinking trans people and trans minors don't exist is a nonstarter.

 

[Laniakea]

It doesn't matter because you don't actually think there's any legitimate reason why a minor is seeking treatment for dysphoria other than 'ignore the dysphoria or conversion therapy.' Just like there are people who are comfortably wrong in the belief that minors would not have any legitimate reason for hormone treatment. Thinking trans people and trans minors don't exist is a nonstarter.

They don't exist as trans until drugs and surgical procedures turn them into that. Until then, they are still a boy or girl, depending on what they were born as.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

They don't exist as trans until drugs and surgical procedures turn them into that. Until then, they are still a boy or girl, depending on what they were born as.

That's literally not how it works, by definition. You don't need any kind of surgery to be considered trans.

No surprise you're worried about "trans kids" if this what you thought it meant.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

They don't exist as trans until drugs and surgical procedures turn them into that. Until then, they are still a boy or girl, depending on what they were born as.

All transgender means is that your gender, a complex array of sociological and psychological qualities, doesn't match your sex, specifically your gonadal sex because most people haven't been karyotyped. You're trans if there is a mismatch between those two things regardless of if you have had hormones and surgery.

The word for someone who has transitioned their gonadal sex, though not a commonly used word anymore, is transsexual. You can be transgender without being transsexual.

 

[SkepticThinker]

People died in hospitals while being treated the government-mandated way as well. Remember all the trucks hauling body bagged bodies away?

Yeah, they died from COVID before we developed treatments for it and , of course, a vaccine. Hospitals were completely overwhelmed and many were being put on ventilators (which saved many lives) at that point.

Do you think that justifies ingesting whatever random drug internet trolls tell you to take?

 

[SkepticThinker]

To be fair, mainstream religions are failing in this area too. Before a problem can be solved, it’s essential to be honest about it.

Not sure how this is a response to what I said.

 

[SkepticThinker]

At the risk of being impolite, I'll throw in my two cents:

Doctors are overworked.

They do not have time to personally become expert in all of the conditions they are called upon to treat. So they frequently rely on the protocols established by other experts. In this case, GAC originated in the Netherlands, and this so-called "Dutch Protocol" was adopted by other doctors who were facing huge increases in the number of kids experiencing GD. So the whole GAC is a sort of house of cards, built on the Dutch protocol. And across Europe, many doctors who trusted and used the Dutch protocol for years, discovered that it doesn't work. So across Europe, it's being rejected.

Here in North America we'll eventually catch up to Europe. But in the meantime, I hope we can minimize the number of confused GD kids we sterilize needlessly.

So, overworked doctors rely on the work of other doctors and scientists in treating patients. Overworked doctors rely on the protocols organized by medical and psychiatric organizations in treating their patients.
What's the problem?

Psychiatrists and psychologists are not experts?

 

[icehorse]

All transgender means is that your gender, a complex array of sociological and psychological qualities, doesn't match your sex, specifically your gonadal sex because most people haven't been karyotyped. You're trans if there is a mismatch between those two things regardless of if you have had hormones and surgery.

The word for someone who has transitioned their gonadal sex, though not a commonly used word anymore, is transsexual. You can be transgender without being transsexual.

Do you believe that gender is fluid?

 

[icehorse]

So, overworked doctors rely on the work of other doctors and scientists in treating patients. Overworked doctors rely on the protocols organized by medical and psychiatric organizations in treating their patients.
What's the problem?

Psychiatrists and psychologists are not experts?

The problem is that the Dutch protocol for GAC is the basis of GAC in the US and elsewhere, and the Dutch protocol has no proven efficacy.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The problem is that the Dutch protocol for GAC is the basis of GAC in the US and elsewhere, and the Dutch protocol has no proven efficacy.

So, we can't trust the experts either. Is that where you're going with this?

 

[icehorse]

So, we can't trust the experts either. Is that where you're going with this?

I would say trust but verify.

- WPATH created the standard of care for GAC, which was based on the Dutch protocol.
- WPATH is strongly influenced by activists.
- We know that Europe's healthcare systems are often far better than in the US.
- Many countries in Europe followed the Dutch protocol for years and discovered that there is no evidence that it helps, and so they've abandoned it.
- Presumably, the US fill follow suit, eventually.
- We know doctors frequently rely on protocols they did not devise.
- We know that profiteering is rampant in the US healthcare system.
- We know that a kid following GAC, even just the drugs, is signing up for a lifetime of dependence on expensive medications.

- We know that doctors often get it wrong:
- opioids
- electroshock therapy
- thalidomide
- unnecessary medications and surgeries for many ailments

And a host of others.

 

[Laniakea]

All transgender means is that your gender, a complex array of sociological and psychological qualities, doesn't match your sex, specifically your gonadal sex because most people haven't been karyotyped. You're trans if there is a mismatch between those two things regardless of if you have had hormones and surgery.

The word for someone who has transitioned their gonadal sex, though not a commonly used word anymore, is transsexual. You can be transgender without being transsexual.

What you're talking about is called "confused".

 

[Laniakea]

Yeah, they died from COVID before we developed treatments for it and , of course, a vaccine. Hospitals were completely overwhelmed and many were being put on ventilators (which saved many lives) at that point.

Do you think that justifies ingesting whatever random drug internet trolls tell you to take?

If someone makes a recommendation, it's up to me to decide to try it or not. Who should I have to justify that to? My body, my choice, right?

 

[Laniakea]

So, we can't trust the experts either. Is that where you're going with this?

They can be trusted if their recommendations come from their expertise alone, rather than mixed with government coercion. It's the govt. that decides if the experts get to keep their license to practice.

 

[Revoltingest]

- We know that doctors often get it wrong:
- opioids
- electroshock therapy
- thalidomide
- unnecessary medications and surgeries for many ailments

And they sometimes get it right, eg, thalidomide.
In USA, the FDA refused approval because of
inadequate testing. Europe was lax, & allowed
it, leading to many birth defects.
Thalidomide still has legitimate medical uses.
I posted because the history of that drug is interesting.
It was featured in an episode of This Podcast Will Kill You.

BTW, if you claim that medical types make mistakes,
& shouldn't be trusted with transition, this poses a
problem with your citing medical studies.