South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[metis]

Circumcision doesn't cut off the entire member nor eliminates functionality.

But that still goes against what you posted.

 

[Revoltingest]

A third of *detransitioners* regret their transition. Not a third of people who transitioned. I follow Kinnon MacKinnon on Tiktok and he and his patients are overwhelming pro accessible GAC

It's hard to reason with people who oppose something
because there are problems. They don't consider that
denying people that something has even greater
problems. It all points out that transitioning requires
thoughtful consideration & evaluation. Experience
& research continue. Things will improve.
Youi can take my word for it....I'm a landlord.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I agree, but that should be last choice imo, and not the first choice.

I take no issue with the agnostic position of no final judgment on this issue due to lack of wisdom or understanding.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You mean, like advocating for the cause of ensuring the long term health, happiness and wellbeing of their patients?

Like doctors do?

This ^^^

 

[fantome profane]

Should parents be allowed to consent to their children using Fentanyl recreationally?

Can you think of any example where the medical community recommends something, and the parents (guardians) agree? Can you think of anything like that where the government should step in?

 

[SkepticThinker]

This is an intuitive instinct many have which I sympathize with. The problem is gender specialists are a hammer looking for a nail. They and the teens are ganging up on parents. Parents are being put in a position of either going down the GAC route or tearing up the family relationship.

You seem to be arguing that we shouldn't leave it up to experts because ... they're experts or "hammers looking for a nail."

Instead we should rely on ... ?

Most parents are busy trying to make ends meet and shouldn’t be expected to have a grasp of this complex issue in the current moment. Legislation can, at least temporarily, relieve parents of the responsibility and better preserve the family relationships.

Parents of trans kids should most definitely try to grasp this complex issue, as they should with any issue(s) their child may face. That's their responsibility as parents and helps "preserve the family relationships."

 

[metis]

Parents of trans kids should most definitely try to grasp this complex issue, as they should with any issue(s) their child may face. That's their responsibility as parents and helps "preserve the family relationships."

Exactly, and such decisions are often heart-wrenching and time consuming, thus not knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Parents of trans kids should most definitely try to grasp this complex issue, as they should with any issue(s) their child may face. That's their responsibility as parents and helps "preserve the family relationships."

Yes, but they shouldn’t be expected to have this wisdom right now. Trans activists are making deep moral and religious claims about gender.

Perhaps we should slow down and stop with the manipulative propaganda that the choice is either GAC or suicide.

 

[Left Coast]

Exactly, and such decisions are often heart-wrenching and time consuming, thus not knee-jerk reactions.

Not to bring in another red-hot controversial topic, but this is similar to debates about abortion. Anti-abortion folks tend to have a silly caricature in their minds as to how women make the decision to have an abortion. In reality it is usually a difficult decision and not taken lightly.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, but they shouldn’t be expected to have this wisdom right now. Trans activists are making deep moral and religious claims about gender.

Of course they shouldn't be expected "to have this wisdom" right off the bat. It's not something that a lot of people really know anything about.

Perhaps we should slow down and stop with the manipulative propaganda that the choice is either GAC or suicide.

Do you know any trans people? I know just one. And she's got track marks up and down her arms from all her attempted suicides before she was able to transition.

 

[icehorse]

Citations? Given that GAC for minors is an established medical/psychiatric practice with known positive results, you're gonna have a hard time defending that one.

How many times do I have to provide links?

And I'll say this again: The idea that giving kids with GD dangerous, irreversible interventions (drugs and surgeries), is the best way to tackle the problem, IS AN EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM. You need extraordinarily good evidence to back up that claim and you don't have any. You don't have any because no one has any.

Show me meta studies of research that used control groups that indicate GAC has any efficacy over the use of talk therapy alone.

And not only is there no evidence of improved efficacy, these drugs and surgeries are dangerous and irreversible. Since when does good medicine subject patients to interventions that are dangerous AND have no proven efficacy?

 

[icehorse]

I just did. A cis woman is a person who was assigned female at birth and identifies as female.

We already have a word for that: woman

We don't need a new word for that.

To speed things along here, if you're going to claim that a trans woman is a different type of woman then we can stop right here. A trans woman is NOT a woman. A trans woman is a trans woman. So "cis" is nonsense. There are women and trans women and that's it.

 

[icehorse]

You mean, like advocating for the cause of ensuring the long term health, happiness and wellbeing of their patients?

Like doctors do?

In this case WPATH is advocating for the transitioning of youth. And again, show me a meta study that include control groups, that conclude that GAC improves well being more than talk therapy alone.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

…

Of course they shouldn't be expected "to have this wisdom" right off the bat. It's not something that a lot of people really know anything about.

Do you know any trans people? I know just one. And she's got track marks up and down her arms from all her attempted suicides before she was able to transition.

Suicide rates remain high post transition because the issue is deeper than gender. It’s a meaning crisis and it’s not solved through gender identity. Your maternal instinct on behalf of your friend might be biasing you and that’s understandable.

 

[icehorse]

Simply put, here's the bottom-line choice:
-have teens, parents, and doctors make the choice, or...
-have a government make the choice for them.

Personally, I go for Curtain #1.

Sure, as long as doctors are limited to interventions with proven efficacy, which GAC does not have.

 

[icehorse]

Well do you have an alternative solution to their issues? If I think it is immoral for minors to be indoctrinated into religion because of the cognitive harm it causes, should we then say government should ban parents from teaching their religion to their kids before they reach 25?

I think that would be a good idea. Perhaps a better idea would be to teach COMPARATIVE RELIGION to high school kids

 

[libre]

Not to bring in another red-hot controversial topic, but this is similar to debates about abortion. Anti-abortion folks tend to have a silly caricature in their minds as to how women make the decision to have an abortion. In reality it is usually a difficult decision and not taken lightly.

The comparison did occur to me as well.

Not to mention a wide variety of anti-lgbt tropes. People used to tell me I would grow out of my same sex attraction.
So when I hear 'maybe they will grow out of it', I just hear 'Maybe we can scare/tempt them back into the closet'.

 

[Left Coast]

How many times do I have to provide links?

Just once. What study demonstrates that all people under age 18 are incapable of knowing they are transgender?

And I'll say this again: The idea that giving kids with GD dangerous, irreversible interventions (drugs and surgeries), is the best way to tackle the problem, IS AN EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM. You need extraordinarily good evidence to back up that claim and you don't have any. You don't have any because no one has any.

Minors are given drugs and surgeries for a myriad of medical and psychiatric conditions literally every single day. No one claims it is "the best way" for every patient on Earth as some blanket universal statement. It is one way that is demonstrably effective and which there are no rational or evidence-based reasons to outlaw.

Show me meta studies of research that used control groups that indicate GAC has any efficacy over the use of talk therapy alone.

There's not really a need for this to know that GAC is clinically sound because medical interventions are done as complementary treatment to psychotherapy, not in opposition to it. Psychotherapy is the standard first line of treatment for patients (especially kids) with GD. Medical and psychological clinicians recommend medication and surgical intervention because it works and when they see that psychotherapy alone is not sufficient to meet the clinical needs of their patients. What in the world is wrong with that?

And not only is there no evidence of improved efficacy, these drugs and surgeries are dangerous and irreversible. Since when does good medicine subject patients to interventions that are dangerous AND have no proven efficacy?

You're assuming what you haven't proved. All drugs and medical procedures involve risk. Many procedures are irreversible. Why the double standard for drugs and surgeries that help trans people?

 

[icehorse]

If a trans person transitions in their early teens, does not regret the decision, and continues to be on HRT into adulthood: am I really supposed to be incredibly torn up about the fact that they *may* have grown out of it if they had decided not to transition?

If you can be bothered to do the any reading about transition regret, see page 118 which is page 137 in the following pdf.
https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf

This is a roughly 350 page document that summarizes dozens and dozens of studies.

I did not read the entire document, but I did study the table of contents (ToC).

Here's what the ToC reveals:

- Dozens of studies focused on dealing with the negative medical issues associated with GAC. So the document that YOU provided helps me make the case that GAC is dangerous.

- Not a single study comparing drugs and surgeries to talk therapy only. In other words, this entire effort is predicated on the assumption that GAC is in play. Once again, dozens of pro-GAC studies and none of them have non-GAC control groups.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

As far as I know, I haven’t been called a bigot or transphobe in this thread unlike any other time I’ve discussed this issue in the past. I’m encouraged by that.