South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[SkepticThinker]

That’s an invalid comparison. This isn’t about banning parents from teaching their children trans ideology. Do you know what thread you’re in?

A better comparison is the illegality of tattoos for minors in certain states in the U.S.

What is "trans ideology?"

 

[icehorse]

That's your claim, anyway.

Yes, WPATH is largely an advocacy group:

What’s wrong with WPATH version 8? - Sex Matters

Do we?

Yes, if you care about actually being healthy without going bankrupt the Europeans have the US beat. Use your search engine, this fact is in the "common knowledge" category, so stop trying to derail the conversation.

Just in the US healthcare system.

Recheck the title of the thread, ffs.

Abandoned? No. Tweaking, yes. That's normal for any protocols. They get tweaked over time.

ABANDONED.

You know, electroshock therapy is still used for persistent, drug resistant cases of severe clinical depression.
Opioids are also still used, but are much more controlled than they used to be.

Right! And once we have good evidence about WHEN we should use GAC we should use it. But right now we do NOT have good evidence, and we're throwing confused kids (often gay, often autistic), under the bus to side with trans activists and what, be PC? Virtue signal?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thats the problem.

Minors are not adults and there is a valid reason why minors are prohibited from doing the majority of adult legalities because of their immaturity and lack of life experiences that definitely would include unreversible medical procedures.

Reversible procedures for minors I don't see a problem.

Another one who thinks gender affirming care means jumping right into cutting off body parts, immediately, right off the bat.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Wrong.

As I've been saying, GAC is based on the Dutch protocol which having been tried has been shown to have no high quality to back up the claims that it is effective. The trans activists would like you to believe it is, but there is no good data.

There is actually a lot of information that trans-affirming care does work. We've presented numerous studies to you, and you dismissed them.

GAC is dangerous, irreversible, and there is no proof of it's efficacy, you know, little things.

Please provide facts to support these claims.

And stop with the "existence" mantra, that is SUCH a ridiculous strawman.

Not a strawman. When people are told that their identity is a mental disorder, its a denial of their existence as a legitimate category.

 

[icehorse]

What is "trans ideology?"

A.k.a. "gender ideology", among other things teaches kids that they might have the "wrong" body.

Sorry, kids cannot possibly have the cognitive development necessary to make such decisions.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Many Western countries tried the Dutch protocol in good faith, gave it a couple of years, and discovered IT DOES NOT WORK.

Citation, please.

No conspiracies necessary, just doctors who are not handcuffed by big pharma or politics.

Evidence, please.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Sorry, kids cannot possibly have the cognitive development necessary to make such decisions.

I agree, which is why I support trans affirming care that allows children the time and freedom to reach the age of consent before making significant decisions about their body and long-term identity, rather than socially forcing a child to be either trans or cis.

 

[icehorse]

There is actually a lot of information that trans-affirming care does work. We've presented numerous studies to you, and you dismissed them.

No you have not. You have not shown any studies that used control groups.

You could just as well be saying that if GD kids use pogo sticks their suicidal thoughts will decease. Because guess what, a lot of kids with GD go thru puberty with no drugs or surgeries and end up feeling better.

Please provide facts to support these claims.

Check, been done.

When people are told that their identity is a mental disorder, its a denial of their existence as a legitimate category.

Wait what? Are you saying that doctors who don't use GAC tell kids with GD that their identity is a mental disorder? I'd like to evidence of that.

The doctors who have abandoned GAC would instead say to a GD kid something roughly like: "We're taking your feelings of distress seriously. We're here for you. We don't yet know how your sexuality might end up resolving. Maybe you're straight, maybe you're gay, maybe you're trans."

 

[icehorse]

I agree, which is why I support trans affirming care that allows children the time and freedom to reach the age of consent before making significant decisions about their body and long-term identity, rather than socially forcing a child to be either trans or cis.

Which would be talk therapy only, and on that we can agree. But do not be fooled into thinking that GAC drugs are safe or reversible, they are neither!

And BTW, when you use the word "cis" you're demonstrating that you've drunk some of the trans activist kool-aid

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, WPATH is largely an advocacy group:

What’s wrong with WPATH version 8? - Sex Matters

We've been over this. You claimed there weren't any doctors in the group, while it turns out it's comprised of doctors.

Yes, if you care about actually being healthy without going bankrupt the Europeans have the US beat. Use your search engine, this fact is in the "common knowledge" category, so stop trying to derail the conversation.

Sure, Europe mostly has universal healthcare. But that doesn't mean they have better medical care.

Recheck the title of the thread, ffs.

Calm down, it's going to be okay.

ABANDONED.

Reviewing, updating and tweaking. as new information, data and evidence come to light. You know, like how science works.

Increasing Number Of European Nations Adopt A More Cautious Approach To Gender-Affirming Care Among Minors

For several years, Europe has been moving in a different direction from the U.S., as Europeans exercise greater restraint when treating children with gender dysphoria.

www.forbes.com

The 2023 Dutch Debate Over Youth Transitions

The Netherlands, like the rest of the Western world, has experienced an unprecedented increase in the number of youth seeking to undergo gender transition. Like the rest of the West, this sharp increase has been driven largely by adolescent females. Unlike the rest of the Western world, where...

segm.org

Right! And once we have good evidence about WHEN we should use GAC we should use it. But right now we do NOT have good evidence, and we're throwing confused kids (often gay, often autistic), under the bus to side with trans activists and what, be PC? Virtue signal?

How about we go on a case by case basis, and allow children, parents and doctors to figure out what's best for the people involved based on the available evidence? You know, like how medicine and mental health are usually practiced.

It's not up to you or me to determine what's best for other peoples' lives.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No you have not. You have not shown any studies that used control groups.

How exactly do you carry out test with control groups for widely-exercised medical care featuring tens out thousands of people and at a societal level?

The control group is literally the same group of people BEFORE INTERVENTION. If you have a group of people who have a remarkably high rate of, say, suicide or self harm, then you carry out a change in the standard of care of those people and it's discovered that the rate of suicide in that group significantly changed, you are comparing two groups. "Control groups" are generally used for small scale experiments, like drug trials.

You could just as well be saying that if GD kids use pogo sticks their suicidal thoughts will decease. Because guess what, a lot of kids with GD go thru puberty with no drugs or surgeries and end up feeling better.

And what do you think that demonstrates? A lot of cancer patients go into remission without chemo or amputation, but that says nothing about the efficacy of chemo or amputation when applied with due medical consideration TO THE PEOPLE IT IS DEEMED MEDICALLY BENEFICIAL FOR. The point is that the evidence suggests that, when deemed medically appropriate, it produces positive results. Y'know, like how medicine works.

Check, been done.

Go on, then.

Wait what? Are you saying that doctors who don't use GAC tell kids with GD that their identity is a mental disorder? I'd like to evidence of that

Nope, now THAT'S a straw man. Go back and reread what I wrote.

The doctors who have abandoned GAC would instead say to a GD kid something roughly like: "We're taking your feelings of distress seriously. We're here for you. We don't yet know how your sexuality might end up resolving. Maybe you're straight, maybe you're gay, maybe you're trans."

Ah yes, totally a thing a medical professional would say and do, because you say so.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Which would be talk therapy only,

Nope! Try harder.

and on that we can agree. But do not be fooled into thinking that GAC drugs are safe or reversible, they are neither!

Based on what? Your imagination?

And BTW, when you use the word "cis" you're demonstrating that you've drunk some of the trans activist kool-aid

Because there's nothing more evil than using words to describe different things.

Gee, it's almost as if by denying the existence of nomenclature you are attempting to erase the distinction between two recognisable categories. Almost as if you're denying those categories exist.

And, by the way, when you use phrases like "drunk the kool-aid" you're demonstrating that you shouldn't be taken seriously in honest debate.

 

[icehorse]

We've been over this. You claimed there weren't any doctors in the group, while it turns out it's comprised of doctors.

many of whom are activists, you can tell by the TRA language they litter their official documents with.

Sure, Europe mostly has universal healthcare. But that doesn't mean they have better medical care.

lmgtfy?

How about we go on a case by case basis, and allow children, parents and doctors to figure out what's best for the people involved based on the available evidence? You know, like how medicine and mental health are usually practiced.

How about we do science? The way these things are done is that the list of options is based on science. Why not introduce the use of pogo sticks as possible interventions for kids with GD, you know, let the parents decide?

It's not up to you or me to determine what's best for other peoples' lives.

You sure are arguing strongly to allow confused gay kids to have their lives ruined by GAC.

 

[icehorse]

Based on what? Your imagination?

Links have been provided.

Because there's nothing more evil than using words to describe different things.

Gee, it's almost as if by denying the existence of nomenclature you are attempting to erase the distinction between two recognisable categories. Almost as if you're denying those categories exist.

And, by the way, when you use phrases like "drunk the kool-aid" you're demonstrating that you shouldn't be taken seriously in honest debate.

Okay then. What does "cis" mean? For example when you say "cis woman" what do you mean?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Links have been provided.

Where?

Okay then. What does "cis" mean? For example when you say "cis woman" what do you mean?

The opposite of trans, like what the term literally means in chemistry. Applied to people, it means someone whose gender identity is the same as their assigned gender at birth.

 

[Audie]

What is "trans ideology?"

Not my term but maybe it refers to the
posture promoted by the name " gender affirming care"..

By the name, who could but support it?

The trick is obvious.

 

[Audie]

Where?


The opposite of trans, like what the term literally means in chemistry. Applied to people, it means someone whose gender identity is the same as their assigned gender at birth.

...means accepting what they are.

 

[Left Coast]

A.k.a. "gender ideology", among other things teaches kids that they might have the "wrong" body.

In other words, it is the position that transgender people actually exist. The horror!

Sorry, kids cannot possibly have the cognitive development necessary to make such decisions.

Cannot possibly, eh? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[SkepticThinker]

many of whom are activists, you can tell by the TRA language they litter their official documents with.

That's your claim. As though it's a bad thing that doctors are activists for their patients.

lmgtfy?

What?

How about we do science? The way these things are done is that the list of options is based on science. Why not introduce the use of pogo sticks as possible interventions for kids with GD, you know, let the parents decide?

That's what I just advocated for.

You sure are arguing strongly to allow confused gay kids to have their lives ruined by GAC.

This was in response to, "It's not up to you or me to determine what's best for other peoples' lives."

I certainly am not. How on earth did you conclude that from what I said??

It's merely your claim that "confused gay kids" are having their lives ruined by GAC.

 

[Left Coast]

Now, as to the question I asked regarding how and why you believe a global conspiracy formed around the medical community to push trans healthcare on minors for no reason whatsoever, and the evidence you have to suggest this occurred? If you could get to addressing that right away rather than addressing the weird, made-up voices in your head, that would be great.

In fairness, I'm sure they don't think it's for no reason whatsoever. They probably think it's to turn people away from God or Jesus or something.