South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Left Coast]

I know how much you love the idea of "lived experience", but it's no way to derive public policies.

You brought up your "lived experience" as though it was relevant. You want to consult polls of LGB people on trans issues? It won't go the way you hope, I promise you.

You tell me, does GAC require consultation with the parents or not?

For minors, sure. Requiring consultation =/= banning, and school staff are not doing GAC, that would be medical professionals. So this is all irrelevant to the bill you're defending.

And to be clear, on the outing question I separated the LGBs from the Ts, remember?

So to be clear, you think it's somehow less traumatic for a trans kid to be outed to their bigoted parents than it is for a gay kid to be outed to theirs? You understand how little sense that makes, right?

 

[Soandso]

Modern trans activists have seriously devolved from those days E.g., they didn't use to brand lesbians "TERFS".

Why do you want to separate trans people from the gay rights movement? Their histories are shared

 

[icehorse]

Yes, with a recycled strawman.

Ok, how did I strawman you?

 

[icehorse]

Trans people in those days were treated worse than dirt. I highly recommend looking into stonewall if you haven't yet already

I assume you're talking about the riots? Or are you talking about the clinic in the UK?

 

[icehorse]

For minors, sure. Requiring consultation =/= banning, and school staff are not doing GAC, that would be medical professionals. So this is all irrelevant to the bill you're defending.

Ok, so this answer suggests that teachers would need to out possibly trans kids, right?

So to be clear, you think it's somehow less traumatic for a trans kid to be outed to their bigoted parents than it is for a gay kid to be outed to theirs? You understand how little sense that makes, right?

And later in your same post you're criticizing the idea of outing potentially trans kids?

Can you clear up this seeming inconsistency for me? thanks!

 

[Quintessence]

I happened to find the proposed bill this morning on govtrack. Its proposed by Rep. Julia Letlow of Louisiana. It is called HR 5 "Parental Rights Act" and proposes that parents be informed about many things that happen in school as well as having a list of the books in the library. Parents would have to be informed if there were any fights in the school, anything dangerous that had happened. There are links to the text of any laws which would be changed by amending or striking.

Yes, the stunt was similar in my state - legislating bigotry under the cover of "parental rights." It's unfortunate, because the actual, proper concept of parental rights (or more accurately, parental accountability and responsibility for their dependents) is an important one. There's a need if not obligation for any caretakers of dependents - childcare centers, schools, medical professionals - to be accountable to the guardians of those dependents. Mostly, to prevent harm... intentional or otherwise.

Problem is, what constitutes "harm" has never been unambiguous. Marginalized groups are especially prone to being "protected" from "harms" when in fact the behaviors do more harm to that group. I think about, for example, indigenous children being ripped from their families to be educated (aka, conditioned by) colonialist schools and standards. "For their own good," the colonists said, as their actions unravelled and uprooted indigenous cultures and identity over and over and over. It is a very similar situation for transgender youth. And it is every bit as ugly.

 

[icehorse]

Why do you want to separate trans people from the gay rights movement? Their histories are shared

Yes, but modern trans activists have created the break.

 

[Left Coast]

Ok, so this answer suggests that teachers would need to out possibly trans kids, right?

Not even remotely. How did you get that from what I said?

 

[icehorse]

Yes, the stunt was similar in my state - legislating bigotry under the cover of "parental rights." It's unfortunate, because the actual, proper concept of parental rights (or more accurately, parental accountability and responsibility for their dependents) is an important one. There's a need if not obligation for any caretakers of dependents - childcare centers, schools, medical professionals - to be accountable to the guardians of those dependents. Mostly, to prevent harm... intentional or otherwise.

Problem is, what constitutes "harm" has never been unambiguous. Marginalized groups are especially prone to being "protected" from "harms" when in fact the behaviors do more harm to that group. I think about, for example, indigenous children being ripped from their families to be educated (aka, conditioned by) colonialist schools and standards. "For their own good," the colonists said, as their actions unravelled and uprooted indigenous cultures and identity over and over and over. It is a very similar situation for transgender youth. And it is every bit as ugly.

I apologize. I read this post several times and I can't understand your actual positions on these topics? would you be willing to summarize your thoughts? thanks!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

First of all, it's a common mistake to lump the T's in with the LGBs, so there's that.

No, that's trying to erase trans people from the common history and struggles shared by LGBT, who back in the day were all just called queers (why you'll more typically hear older queers using the term as an umbrella term).
There's no mistake. It was the T who kicked off the Stonewall Riots, and tyring to separate us is just an egregious offense as trying to portray the Stonewall Riots as just a gay thing.

 

[icehorse]

Not even remotely. How did you get that from what I said?

Ok, earlier you said:

For minors, sure. Requiring consultation =/= banning, and school staff are not doing GAC, that would be medical professionals. So this is all irrelevant to the bill you're defending.

So what process are you advocating for if a teacher thinks they might have a trans kid in their class? Step by step. Do they tell the parents? Or do they skip the parents and tell doctors? Then what, the doctors tell the parents?

help!

 

[icehorse]

No, that's trying to erase trans people from the common history and struggles shared by LGBT, who back in the day were all just called queers (why you'll more typically hear older queers using the term as an umbrella term).
There's no mistake. It was the T who kicked off the Stonewall Riots, and tyring to separate us is just an egregious offense as trying to portray the Stonewall Riots as just a gay thing.

That was then, things have changed.

 

[Left Coast]

Ok, earlier you said:

So what process are you advocating for if a teacher thinks they might have a trans kid in their class? Step by step. Do they tell the parents? Or do they skip the parents and tell doctors? Then what, the doctors tell the parents?

help!

Teachers have nothing to do with providing gender affirming medical care to kids. That would be the physician or other medical professional of the kid. So me saying GAC would reasonably involve parents has nothing to do with any teachers.

Does that clear it up for you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That was then, things have changed.

No, they haven't. It's still LGBT and there is strong opposition from the LGB in regards to removing the T from it. There is no mistake, just bigotry that wants to needlessly and cruely divide.

So what process are you advocating for if a teacher thinks they might have a trans kid in their class?

Mind their own business.

 

[Soandso]

I assume you're talking about the riots? Or are you talking about the clinic in the UK?

The riots. Here is Sylvia Rivera giving a speech there. Trigger warning: bad language and awful topics such as rape

Trans people have always been there since the beginning, and absolutely deserve to be included in the LGBT movement. They've fought tooth and nail the whole way up until today

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, the stunt was similar in my state - legislating bigotry under the cover of "parental rights."

I wonder if Reps and Cons would even care if they learned how deeply steeped in doublespeak they actually are and the extent they are betraying thier values in the name of their values?

 

[Secret Chief]

I thought I explained that in post #20, where did I lose you, because I agree, it IS complex.

Sorry, missed that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

E.g., they didn't use to brand lesbians "TERFS".

I missed that one. That's one new to me, and I run a secular group that meets at a place for queers and has with two trans-women and two bi-cis-women and a cis-lesbian who are bigger advocates than me. I'll have to inform my Number One (she's one if the cis-girls) of this policy. But she's a Satanist and Juggalette so I see this new policy being tossed out before it goes to the group for a decision.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm not the arbiter of the one true caring belief, but I am the arbiter of conversations that I find productive for me to entertain.
Given that you can't seem to bring yourself to say that a teacher outing a transgender child is just as bad as outing a gay child, I don't see the purpose in continuing this conversation any further.

Seconded. That one is staying on ignore for the rest of their or my time here.

I would flatly refuse to comply with that school directive, to hell with the consequence. There's no job or bonuses or tenure or anything worth it to me to expose endangered kids to abusive parents. It'd be like outing a kid as atheist to hyper fundamentalist or culty parents except they have even lower rates of retalitory abandonment, neglect and abuse.

Thank goodness for HIPAA and my states ordinances. If a minor discloses their trans identity to me in my line of health work I'm *forbidden* from telling their parents without the child's consent. Teachers should have similar protections.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would flatly refuse to comply with that school directive, to hell with the consequence. There's no job or bonuses or tenure or anything worth it to me to expose endangered kids to abusive parents. It'd be like outing a kid as atheist to hyper fundamentalist or culty parents except they have even lower rates of retalitory abandonment, neglect and abuse.

Yeah, it totally throws the safety of the child out the window. Ethically I wouldn't be able to comply and make myself an accessory and enabler of an incident of child abuse.