South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Firenze]

If I'm understanding you, you think both categories should be handled the same way? Do you think LGB is as life-threateningly serious as T is? Again, what we hear over and over again from supporters of GAC is that "GAC saves lives". We also hear how suicidal youths with gender dysphoria are, right? So if all of that is true, and if it's also true that doctors would never initiate GAC without deep consultation with parents, then what's a teacher to do with a maybe-trans kid who tells them about their gender dysphoria?

My tentative answer is that teachers probably should not "out" lgb's but that they should "out" t's.

LGB’s have been shunned by their families, and killed by religious bigots.
T’s have been shunned by their families, and killed by religious bigots.
If you lack the intellectual capacity to see the stark similarities here, your opinions are meaningless.

 

[icehorse]

You seem confused. If a medical expert determines that the best way to make them feel better IS to transition them, then that is the best treatment. Were you under the impression that doctors should just ignore those instances and, instead, always refuse to give the best possible care? You think it's the job of doctors to deliberately avoid giving the best treatment to their patients?

another strawman!

For pretty obvious reasons. When trying a new drug, you don't already have decades of living examples of people taking that drug to compare it to, and it's pretty easy to just get a hundred or so people to form a control group and easily observe the effects of that drug. Whereas, for broad sweeping practice and care, you have that same population before and after. This is obvious.

Wait, in your last post to me you said that we shouldn't use control groups and now you're saying it's easy and we should?

I'm sincerely confused, can you rephrase your thoughts on the use of control groups in general and why we cannot use control groups in this case?

Again, my specific question is this: Why can't we compare the efficacy of GAC drugs / surgeries to the efficacy of talk therapy only?

 

[icehorse]

Do I need to quote you again?

Sure, quote me in context and we'll go from there...

 

[icehorse]

Why do you keep pretending you care about facts when you make every effort possible to dismiss any that contradict what you believe?

see post #682, and STOP with the strawman arguments.

Obviously, which is why it's generally not recommended medically for "confused gay kids", ffs.

If the doctor does not allow the confused GD kid to go through puberty, then how does the doctor know if that kid is gay? Because the point is that a lot of kids with GD have their GD dissipate naturally when they're allowed to go thru puberty without drugs. And if you jump the gun and start giving them drugs before they've gone thru natural puberty, no one will ever know what would have happened to that kid without drugs.

 

[icehorse]

So, when it's anecdotal evidence against your assumptions, it's "evidence of very low quality". When it's anecdotal evidence you agree with, it's suddenly credible and worth consideration with regards to whether GAC is safe.

Meanwhile, the SEVEN MEDICAL STUDIES I provided on page 29 are... Apparently, not even worth remarking on, because you completely ignored them.

100% feels over facts.

see my last question in post #682.

 

[icehorse]

Icehorse has never had to cradle weeping trans kids in his arms who were violently thrown out on the street by their loving and Christlike parents….

There is no 100% perfect approach here. Sometimes that horrible outcome might happen.

But sometimes an activist teacher might try to sway a perfectly healthy kid into a lifetime of needless medical dependency.

 

[icehorse]

LGB’s have been shunned by their families, and killed by religious bigots.
T’s have been shunned by their families, and killed by religious bigots.
If you lack the intellectual capacity to see the stark similarities here, your opinions are meaningless.

cheap, ridiculous strawman.

 

[Firenze]

cheap, ridiculous strawman.

The only cheap thing here is your need to call everything that shows the flaws in your reasoning a ‘straw man’.

 

[icehorse]

The only cheap thing here is your need to call everything that shows the flaws in your reasoning a ‘straw man’.

if you have a good argument, you should have no reason to strawman me.

 

[Firenze]

if you have a good argument, you should have no reason to strawman me.

And again, your ignorance of what a straw man fallacy means is why you fail so miserably here.

You made the claim that T’s are significantly different than LGB’s. I evidenced the ignorance of that claim by pointing out that they suffer in similar ways because of primarily religious bigotry and the sexual insecurity of a lot of men.

Responding to your claim is not a straw man, regardless of how desperate you are to pretend that it is.

 

[icehorse]

And again, your ignorance of what a straw man fallacy means is why you fail so miserably here.

You made the claim that T’s are significantly different than LGB’s. I evidenced the ignorance of that claim by pointing out that they suffer in similar ways because of primarily religious bigotry and the sexual insecurity of a lot of men.

Responding to your claim is not a straw man, regardless of how desperate you are to pretend that it is.

By your logic we can say that zebras are horses. While they share some similarities, they are not the same. So all you did was provide a few similarities, by no means does that constitute proof that they should be in the same category.

 

[Firenze]

By your logic we can say that zebras are horses. While they share some similarities, they are not the same. So all you did was provide a few similarities, by no means does that constitute proof that they should be in the same category.

Except that T’s are in the same category as LGB+. Medical science recognizes that fact. And the fact that there is friction between T’s and all the rest is easily understood. LGB’s are quite rational in distancing themselves from T’s. T’s are the ‘new negros’ - demonized, marginalized, denied employment, ostracized by family, assaulted, murdered…. At a current rate much higher than the rest, who naturally appreciate being further out of the crosshairs of religious hate and violent bigotry.
So yeah, you’re welcome to differentiate between T’s and the rest based on the increased violence they are subject to - but the fact remains that all are marginalized by a sexually repressed culture.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sure, quote me in context and we'll go from there...

Here's one. Lets protect the gays but toss the Ts to the lions and take away their right to come out on tjeir own terms.

My tentative answer is that teachers probably should not "out" lgb's but that they should "out" t's.

 

[icehorse]

Except that T’s are in the same category as LGB+. Medical science recognizes that fact. And the fact that there is friction between T’s and all the rest is easily understood. LGB’s are quite rational in distancing themselves from T’s. T’s are the ‘new negros’ - demonized, marginalized, denied employment, ostracized by family, assaulted, murdered…. At a current rate much higher than the rest, who naturally appreciate being further out of the crosshairs of religious hate and violent bigotry.
So yeah, you’re welcome to differentiate between T’s and the rest based on the increased violence they are subject to - but the fact remains that all are marginalized by a sexually repressed culture.

Yes, that's a common talking point. But do you have any citations? Here's an article - with citations - that disagrees with the mantra-like claim that Ts are subject to more violence..

No, There’s No ‘Epidemic’ of Anti-Transgender Violence

The other key point here is that trans activists are often violent towards lesbians who don't want to date them. That's easily google-able.

So no, T's are not the "new negroes", but trans activists are making life much worse for Ts who just want to get on with it. I will - once again - quote JK Rowling, in response to violent trans activists:

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?

 

[icehorse]

Here's one. Lets protect the gays but toss the Ts to the lions and take away their right to come out on tjeir own terms.

I never said that. You've just edited and twisted my words. It's far easier to attack an idea when you misquote someone.

This is known as... wait for it...

A STRAWMAN, ffs.

 

[Firenze]

Yes, that's a common talking point. But do you have any citations? Here's an article - with citations - that disagrees with the mantra-like claim that Ts are subject to more violence..

No, There’s No ‘Epidemic’ of Anti-Transgender Violence

The other key point here is that trans activists are often violent towards lesbians who don't want to date them. That's easily google-able.

So no, T's are not the "new negroes", but trans activists are making life much worse for Ts who just want to get on with it. I will - once again - quote JK Rowling, in response to violent trans activists:

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?

You’re citing a source by Quillette, a rag funded by its readers, who are likely bigots as well.

And it’s no shock that you blindly swallow their claims against those nasty ‘trans activists’ that keep you up at night.

But I prefer to rely on actual experts, so here’s an actual scientific article from the NIH.

A global cautionary tale: discrimination and violence against trans women worsen despite investments in public resources and improvements in health insurance access and utilization of health care - PMC

To determine if improvements in social determinants of health for trans women and decreases in transphobic discrimination and violence occurred over three study periods during which extensive local programs were implemented to specifically address ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And I’m sorry, but quoting a transphobe like Rowling - who like you has no formal education in the subject - doesn’t help you. It’s like having a head injury and seeking out a proctologist….

 

[Laniakea]

You really don't see the difference, do you?

I actually do. The difference is the standard you hold everyone else to compared to standard you want them to have for you.

 

[icehorse]

You’re citing a source by Quillette, a rag funded by its readers, who are likely bigots as well.

Sigh... The article makes a series of specific factual claims. It does not matter who utters a factual claim, the only thing that matters is whether the claim is true or false.

And I’m sorry, but quoting a transphobe like Rowling - who like you has no formal education in the subject - doesn’t help you. It’s like having a head injury and seeking out a proctologist….

Several months back I started a thread asking people to explain exactly what JKR has said that's transphobic. Crickets. You are welcome to support your claim with evidence. From what I've seen JKR has said nothing against trans people, she has only pushed back on trans activists.

==

The link you provided sheds is useful, thanks. My link was focused only on murders.

But trans activism is not making the situation better, it's making it worse, it's spreading ill will.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I never said that. You've just edited and twisted my words. It's far easier to attack an idea when you misquote someone.

This is known as... wait for it...

A STRAWMAN, ffs.

Its what happens if you get your way and teachers force trans people out of the closet. You'd protect gays, because you've weaponized them in many threads, but trans you care so little for you'd steal from them coming out on their own terns when they are ready and comfortable doing so.
If the child is keeping it a secret from the parents there's probably a very good reason for that but you don't care.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I actually do. The difference is the standard you hold everyone else to compared to standard you want them to have for you.