South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Revoltingest]

As a "gay folk" myself, I can attest to that!

As bigots go, you're one of the best.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

AFAIK there are no perfect solutions. But I believe that talk therapy is - statistically - a far, far, far better solution than drugs and surgeries.

And what is it you believe "talk therapy" can do? I can only think of one aim -- since talk therapy isn't going to change the "equipment," talk therapy MUST be directed to altering the mind, to change one's deepest feelings about who one is to be someone else.

Thus, you accept that your brain got nuttin' to do with what you is, you are gross flesh and nuttin' but. Right?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Meaning is the highest value and lasting meaning is to be valued over short term meaning. I believe these to be universal truths.

And you also elevate a penis or vagina over the mind -- and the mind is where meaning actually IS.

 

[Koldo]

Eh, I maybe need to think my response to this through.

But there's a reason why 2nd and 3rd world countries are cringing and laughing at us on this issue.

We've got it backward - and, once again, toxic capitalism is to blame: this time, it's preying on kids going through puberty and having identity issues. "Trans Healthcare" is nothing more than a pretty marketing brand.

I am from Brazil, and I can tell you that transwomen become sex workers here at an appalling high rate. I genuinely think that if they had access to gender-affirming care at an early age and actually looked, for all sakes and purposes, like a cis women that they wouldn't face the so many challenges they do. You will have a very hard time finding someone here that clearly looks like a transwoman working at a decent paying job.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

And you also elevate a penis or vagina over the mind -- and the mind is where meaning actually IS.

Right, meaning resides in the mind. Not the brain.

And, no I don’t solely equate gender to biology. Gender has a metaphysical reality, but there is no such thing as each of us having a “true gender”.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Right, meaning resides in the mind. Not the brain.

Please provide an example of one without the other.

And, no I don’t solely equate gender to biology. Gender has a metaphysical reality, but there is no such thing as each of us having a “true gender”.

I would interpret "metaphysical reality" to mean an idea, doctrine or posited reality outside of human sense perception. How is it you see "male" or "female" as being "outside human sense perception?"

(I am subtly trying to tell you that I see that strange statement as a "deepity," and thus not worth paying attention to.)

 

[icehorse]

I have no idea why you are speaking as if people had to stick to one single procedure. I am in favor of talk therapy, as the first line of care. But if talk therapy doesn't work after some time, and particularly if the very own professional administering it sees it is not going to work properly, then further measures must be taken.

I am going to give you a personal example. I used to go to a psychologist many years ago, and among the many things we talked about I mentioned I felt upset because I still had acne past my teen years. He already knew me for many months when I brought this up. It wasn't anything severe, but it annoyed me quite a bunch. The literal first he said was: "Have you tried isotretinoin?". Simple as that, he figured that this was a much simpler and efficient solution than using up our time together trying to deal with that problem. And it was! That's what I did, and problem solved. Obviously he wasn't the one who prescribed the medication. I went to a dermatologist and he agreed isotretinoin was my best chance.

The point here is that we ought to let medical professionals evaluate the patients individually to determine what is the best treatment, rather than trying to fix everything with a broad brush.

The key point here is that the drugs and surgeries are irreversible, dangerous, and have no proven efficacy.

As for the meta-studies, I did not provide a link in that post, but I believe that in the links I provided there are links to or mentions of meta-studies.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Please provide an example of one without the other.

Is it impossible that truths can exist outside of empirical truth?

 

[icehorse]

It would make sense that where gender and sexuality have intersecting roles and relationships, and are subjected to the same social scrutiny, folks who don't follow the prescribed roles would band together.

This is a fair point.

But trans activists have made it a challenge for all of society to interact with trans people, and that's mostly not true of gays.

The other crucial distinction is that gay people are comfortable in their bodies, they're just same sex attracted. In addition, it's not uncommon for an INTACT trans woman to declare themselves lesbians, and then raise a fuss when lesbians don't want to date them. Gay people make no such demands on others. Trans activists are actively trying to cancel anyone whose opinion is different than their own, again, consider JK Rowling. I think it's largely trans activists, not trans people who are creating this ill will.

 

[Heyo]

Tyrants see themselves as perpetual victims, blinding themselves to their tyranny.

If you are used to privilege, equality is seen as a loss.
And from the '60s to about the '00s many groups have won (some) equality and if not that, then at least recognition. Women, POC, gays - all the people a WASP could look down on are no longer seen as inferior. A scary perspective for the entitled that now even trans people may get the right to pursue happiness. They might even have to work for a piece of self-confidence instead of relying on their status.

 

[Koldo]

The key point here is that the drugs and surgeries are irreversible, dangerous, and have no proven efficacy.

Going through puberty is irreversible (at least socially and psychologically speaking) and dangerous to trans people.
Your statement that it has no proven efficacy I will evaluate once you provide a link to the meta-studies.

As for the meta-studies, I did not provide a link in that post, but I believe that in the links I provided there are links to or mentions of meta-studies.

I looked into you links and I found no link to the meta-studies, thus why I asked.

 

[icehorse]

And what is it you believe "talk therapy" can do? I can only think of one aim -- since talk therapy isn't going to change the "equipment," talk therapy MUST be directed to altering the mind, to change one's deepest feelings about who one is to be someone else.

Trans people report feeling they are in the wrong body, correct? And the stated goals of GAC are to improve mental health and reduce suicidal thoughts and tendencies, correct?

So the goals of ANY of the interventions is to make people feel better. And often talk therapy and time make GD kids feel better.

Again, it seems as though you're willing to subject confused gay kids to sterilization "in case" they're actually trans, and "in case" - without evidence - drugs and surgeries might make them feel better? How is this compassionate?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is it impossible that truths can exist outside of empirical truth?

Perhaps -- but what value could it have if it is not empirical? Everything may be possible if not based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience, but likewise all of those same things may be impossible.

It is, for example, just possible that you have 125 billion dollars in bank accounts you don't know about. How do you think that will avail you?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

If you are used to privilege, equality is seen as a loss.
And from the '60s to about the '00s many groups have won (some) equality and if not that, then at least recognition. Women, POC, gays - all the people a WASP could look down on are no longer seen as inferior. A scary perspective for the entitled that now even trans people may get the right to pursue happiness. They might even have to work for a piece of self-confidence instead of relying on their status.

If you are used to parasitically leeching meaning off of the marginalized, then to stop would be seen as a loss.

 

[Heyo]

Tell me this, at the cellular level, do you think a person's sex changes after conception?

Didn't we answer that in recent debates? The phenotypical sex only develops during pregnancy. Without hormonal influences every XY male would only express female characteristics. See Androgen insensitivity syndrome - Wikipedia.

So, yes, at conception you were "female" and only developed male anatomy later in the pregnancy.

 

[libre]

The LGBT community started out as something worthwhile, but even my gay friends are pretty disgusted and disillusioned by it with good reason.

This is more a reflection of the gay/lesbian/trans people you chose / are capable of befriending, rather than a meaningful indictment of the community.

That said, I do appreciate the honest bigotry over the veiled concern.

 

[Heyo]

If you are used to parasitically leeching meaning off of the marginalized, then to stop would be seen as a loss.

What does that mean? I don't understand.

 

[icehorse]

Going through puberty is irreversible (at least socially and psychologically speaking) and dangerous to trans people.
Your statement that it has no proven efficacy I will evaluate once you provide a link to the meta-studies.



I looked into you links and I found no link to the meta-studies, thus why I asked.

you watched the videos?

Anyway, here's one such analysis:

Interim report – Cass Review

cass.independent-review.uk

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Perhaps -- but what value could it have if it is not empirical? Everything may possible if not based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience, but likewise all of those same things may be impossible.

It is, for example, just possible that you have 125 billion dollars in bank accounts you don't know about. How do you think that will avail you?

When you have many competing values, it becomes impossible to measure ‘the good’ empirically. Morality is not so simple to be reduced to science.

 

[icehorse]

This is more a reflection of the gay/lesbian/trans people you chose / are capable of befriending, rather than a meaningful indictment of the community.

That said, I do appreciate the honest bigotry over the veiled concern.

Says the master of the universe? wow!