South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Treasure Hunter]

I don't understand this.

Gender dysphoria or trans identity are both symptoms of underlying meaning deficit or meaning crisis: lack of belonging, existential angst, etc.

Lasting meaning can only be found through the individuated self, which can only be related to separate from gender, sexuality, race, etc. The short term meaning found in being celebrated in the trans community isn’t a solution, which is why fragility remains among those who transition.

Looking at brain scans does nothing for the meaning crisis besides cause more chaos and confusion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I tried, I really tried, to have a reasonable conversation with you, but once again you've proven you just can't do it.

Have a fine day.

You have never tried to have a reasonable conversation with me. What you do is blame the victim, weaponize people against transpeople and show us how much you don't know about the subject amd aren't interested in learning. You call people who disagree with you a bigot, even if its you calling a cis-woman a misogynist because she doesn't agree with you on something regarding cis-women. You want to protect gays, but sometimes a gay person realizes "I'm really trans" but regardless that's why a medical transition is a lengthy process (something you have consistently failed to acknowledge) because it's been known for decades not everyone who presents with GD is a good candidate for it. Sometimes it may even take some time for someone to realize tjey don't really need it. That's why it takes time.

 

[icehorse]

Dominant current in medicine disagrees.

I would refer you to the link in post 108.

The patients themselves also unilaterally disagree.

Without control groups, an individual's input provides very little useful data. In other words, if a patient underwent GAC and feels better, that's great. But we'll never know how they would have felt with only talk therapy.

This level of polarization is very scary. I don't think that medical professionals should be punished based on your surface level understanding of trans healthcare.

I think that those doctors who are also trans activists and know they have only bad data, ought to be severely punished. Thankfully, I think we'll see a tidal wave of lawsuits in the coming years and GAC will be suspended. And the sooner that happens, the fewer young people's lives will be permanently destroyed by GAC.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What are you worried about exactly? By chance, are you worried that gender-affirming is going to be administered without parental consent if the teachers don't out trans teenagers to potentially abusive parents? If the parents don't know already, chances are the teenagers feel unsafe and expect abusive reactions, thus why the label 'potentially abusive parents' is proper. Do you think your fear of gender-affirming care being somehow administered without parental consent justifies exposing trans teenagers to abuse?

You know, I rather suspect that, yes indeed, @icehorse is greatly concerned that trans people may not, in fact, be sufficiently punished for their heinous crime.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Even gay folk can be bigots.

As a "gay folk" myself, I can attest to that!

 

[icehorse]

So glad you had the good sense to ask that question. It's strange that it seems so obvious to me and others, while many simply cannot grasp even the concept.

Research suggests that gender identity is likely influenced by a combination of biological, genetic, hormonal, and environmental factors, while assigned sex at birth is the responsibility of nothing but the hormones (testosterone, estrogen) present or absence during development. The brain and body do not develop at the same pace, and short-term hormonal or other disruptions may affect brain development, and then resolve, having no effect on sexual development of the body.

The brain plays a crucial role in shaping one's sense of gender identity, and studies have identified structural and functional differences in the brains of transgender individuals compared to cisgender individuals. However, the exact mechanisms and causes are still not fully understood.

In your opinion, is gender fluid in individuals?

 

[icehorse]

You know, I rather suspect that, yes indeed, @icehorse is greatly concerned that trans people may not, in fact, be sufficiently punished for their heinous crime.

And I believe that history will show that my criticisms of GAC are in fact far more compassionate than whatever stance it is you're taking. I believe it will soon become common knowledge that GAC frequently results in sterilizing confused gay kids.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Excerpted...
The LGB Alliance is a British nonprofit advocacy group founded in 2019, in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.[1] Its founders are Bev Jackson, Kate Harris, Allison Bailey, Malcolm Clark and Ann Sinnott. The organization has said that lesbians are facing "extinction" because of the "disproportionate" focus on transgender identities in schools.[2]

The LGB Alliance describes its objective as "asserting the right of lesbians, bisexuals and gay men to define themselves as same-sex attracted", and states that such a right is threatened by "attempts to introduce confusion between biological sex and the notion of gender".[1] The group has opposed a ban on conversion therapy for trans people in the UK,[3] opposed the use of puberty blockers for children,[4] and opposed gender recognition reform.[5]

LGB Alliance could stand to learn something that, in the end (I think), will seem obvious to most thinking people: human beings are capable of:

• perceiving themselves as more than, and not identical to, their physical bodies
• being attracted to, and capable of sexually satisfying and being sexually satisfied by, other human beings -- regardless of which sets of organs or gender identities are involved
• capable of enjoying sexual relations without the desire for offspring every time
• likely to be found in all sorts of relationships, none of which is anything to worry about, and most of which will be of the usual kind anyway, for reasons easily understood by a study of nature.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Without control groups, an individual's input provides very little useful data. In other words, if a patient underwent GAC and feels better, that's great. But we'll never know how they would have felt with only talk therapy.

This once again shows you don't know how medical research works. There's a lot of things it is either impossible or unethical (sometimes both) to utilze a control and test group. Like breast feeding. Can't do it. So we have to look at other methods to determine the effects of it.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

The brain plays a crucial role in shaping one's sense of gender identity

This is a belief, and one that isn’t true. Brain activity is correlated with what is happening in the mind; brain activity doesn’t cause what’s happening in the mind with gender identity (ignoring some rare case of TBI I don’t know about and would be irrelevant).

 

[icehorse]

Oh, all-wise one, are you suggesting that you know so very much better than the American Psychological Association, and the latter has "drunk the gender identity koolaid?" Where/how did you acquire this transcendental genius?

The foundational professional guideline for working with gender diverse persons acknowledges that, “Psychologists understand that gender is a nonbinary construct that allows for a range of gender identities and that a person’s gender identity may not align with sex assigned at birth.” (APA, 2015, p. 834).​

I assume this question is directed at me? If not, sorry.

So again, I want to ask you what your thoughts are about gender as distinct from sex. So as a start, do you think an individual's gender identity can be fluid over time?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Sex is not "assigned at birth" it is ESTABLISHED AT CONCEPTION.

This is not necessarily true. Certainly, it is true of clown fish (like NEMO), that all start their lives as males, but as they age and grow, the larger of them (which may already be fathers!) will change to female and become mothers.

Nature is tricksy like that, eh? Confound it!

 

[icehorse]

LGB Alliance could stand to learn something that, in the end (I think), will seem obvious to most thinking people: human beings are capable of:

• perceiving themselves as more than, and not identical, to their physical bodies
• being attracted to, and capable of sexually satisfying and being sexually satisfied by, other human beings -- regardless of which sets of organs or gender identities are involved
• capable of enjoying sexual relations without the desire for offspring every time
• likely to be found in all sorts of relationships, none of which is anything to worry about, and most of which will be of the usual kind anyway, for reasons easily understood by a study of nature.

FWIW, I have no issues with any of this, and neither does the LGB alliance.

These claims are not quite on topic.

 

[icehorse]

This is not necessarily true. Certainly, it is true of clown fish (like NEMO), that all start their lives as males, but as they age and grow, the larger of them (which may already be fathers!) will change to female and become mothers.

Nature is tricksy like that, eh? Confound it!

OMG - thank you for bringing up clown fish!

Our biological connection to clown fish is tenuous at best. Do you want to bring ALL of biology into the discussion? To what end?

Tell me this, at the cellular level, do you think a person's sex changes after conception?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I disagree with most everything you just said.

And you'll be damned if you'll say why, right?

 

[libre]

You know, I rather suspect that, yes indeed, @icehorse is greatly concerned that trans people may not, in fact, be sufficiently punished for their heinous crime.

I'd like to think otherwise but his posts are littered with implicit value judgements and his blatant disregard for the experience of trans patients does test my patience and make it hard to suspend my doubt.

It's rather convenient that the person who has purportedly scientific objections to GAC is also the person who has brought up TERF talking points and fails to acknowledge why letting children come out at their own pace is important for their basic safety. He's not just good one objection to trans healthcare he's got a whole worldview.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

The APA absolutely drank the koolaid. What was the scientific breakthrough regarding gender that caused them to change their position in 2012?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Molecular Biology was my major at uni. All the gender ideologists are grasping at straws.

And how long ago was that? Has humanity learned absolutely nothing since you went to school -- you were the proud recipient of the final level of human discovery?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is a belief, and one that isn’t true. Brain activity is correlated with what is happening in the mind; brain activity doesn’t cause what’s happening in the mind with gender identity (ignoring some rare case of TBI I don’t know about and would be irrelevant).

No, the brains of trans people.have been found to look more like their identified sex than their birth sex.

 

[icehorse]

I'd like to think otherwise but his posts are littered with implicit value judgements and his blatant disregard for the experience of trans patients does test my patience and make it hard to suspend my doubt.

This whole "punishment" angle is a total fabrication.

But let me ask you this: What do you think when a confused kid experiences GD, gets talk therapy, goes thru puberty, and their GD is resolved? Isn't that a way, way better outcome than drugs and surgery?

It's rather convenient that the person who has purportedly scientific objections to GAC is also the person who has brought up TERF talking points and fails to acknowledge why letting children come out at their own pace is important for their basic safety

I don't recall discussing that point. But now that you bring it up, using talk therapy to let kids come out at their own pace is EXACTLY what I'm suggesting

He's not just good one objection to trans healthcare he's got a whole worldview.

The sad reality is that trans healthcare is HEAVILY politicized, so it's important to zoom out to consider those aspects as well.