State Senator Proposes Mandatory Vasectomies for Nebraskans

[fantome profane]

What do you want to call it? It can be highly inconvenient, but aside from life of mom its not likely to be lethal (unlike abortion). In many states (not sure about all) a mother can had over a baby she does not feel she can care for without any legal penalties. So the length of difficulty is not supper long evne though at times is can be very difficult.

Very convincing argument if you are trying to convince someone to choose not to have an abortion.

But that is not what you are trying to do. You are trying to convince others that they should not be allowed to choose. To use force and physical violence to take that choice away.

 

[crossfire]

You've argued a few times for people to be required to provide goods and services they think are morally unacceptable. I'm simply saying you can't off your baby outside of extreme circumstances. It seems a pretty low bar.

Population is increasing in some areas, however in terms of white people it is in decline in the US and many parts of the world and planned parenthood targeted back communities from the start. That is was abused as a tool to limit the black race's political power is well known.

Have you looked at the maternal death rates for blacks as compared to non-blacks? It's 2.9 times the rate of non-Hispanic white women. How is clamping down on reproductive care options going to help them?
The CDC stats:
Maternal Mortality Rates in the United States, 2020

 

[Truth in love]

Actually, I've only argued that this is the law.
Also that it's a de minimis imposition compared
to what's done under real authoritarian regimes.
I'm not a fan of anti-discrimination laws, but can
see their usefulness...& their risks.
But I greatly oppose requiring discrimination, eg,
requiring that some genders & races be given
preferential treatment.

Here we go again....you say a fetus is a baby.
I say they're vastly different in how they function
& the burden imposed upon the caregiver/host.

I don't worry about white people being in decline.
There are plenty of us. We don't need to ban
abortion just to increase our ranks. And as for
abuse of blacks back in the day...they seem to
have overcome it, & their ranks are increasing.
Ameristan is chock full of black folk. Could use
more Asians though.

YES I stick to the biology that its a baby! It is a political not a physical line (subjective as you have pointed out) to call it anything else.

 

[Truth in love]

Very convincing argument if you are trying to convince someone to choose not to have an abortion.

But that is not what you are trying to do. You are trying to convince others that they should not be allowed to choose. To use force and physical violence to take that choice away.

No I'm arguing that force and violence should not be used.

Nice attempt to twist it around, but the simple reality is the abortion is an act of great violence (more graphic for late term) that kills an innocent human.

 

[Truth in love]

Have you looked at the maternal death rates for blacks as compared to non-blacks? It's 2.9 times the rate of non-Hispanic white women. How is clamping down on reproductive care options going to help them?
The CDC stats:
Maternal Mortality Rates in the United States, 2020

"reproductive care" as though shooting my neighbor would be "caring for the quality of the neighborhood"

We need to fix the problem. In the case of high mortality 3rd rate medical care and past trauma causing harm are 2 highly suspicious places to try to address this. Offing JR when mom is not being harmed by Jr is morally abhorrent.

 

[fantome profane]

No I'm arguing that force and violence should not be used.

Nice attempt to twist it around, but the simple reality is the abortion is an act of great violence (more graphic for late term) that kills an innocent human.

No, you are arguing that force and violence should be used, you just don’t realize it.

That is what it means to have a law against something. It can only be enforced with violence or the threat of violence.

 

[Revoltingest]

YES I stick to the biology that its a baby! It is a political not a physical line (subjective as you have pointed out) to call it anything else.

We both like biology. But it doesn't address
whether a fetus should have the same rights
as a baby.

 

[crossfire]

"reproductive care" as though shooting my neighbor would be "caring for the quality of the neighborhood"

We need to fix the problem. In the case of high mortality 3rd rate medical care and past trauma causing harm are 2 highly suspicious places to try to address this. Offing JR when mom is not being harmed by Jr is morally abhorrent.

Have you noticed the dramatic rise in the maternal mortality rate over the past couple of years? Clamping down on abortion has been driving the maternal mortality rates even higher! So yes, abortion is obviously part of reproductive care.

 

[F1fan]

YES I stick to the biology that its a baby!

Biology has more accuracy and recision than you do. Zygotes and fetuses are not babies. This is why your point of view is not arguable.

It is a political not a physical line (subjective as you have pointed out) to call it anything else.

Your point of view is political, and not a valid argument at face value.

 

[Truth in love]

No, you are arguing that force and violence should be used, you just don’t realize it.

That is what it means to have a law against something. It can only be enforced with violence or the threat of violence.

You are correct the core concept of law.

But would you argue that laws against murder and rape are violent or trying to prevent them?

 

[Truth in love]

Have you noticed the dramatic rise in the maternal mortality rate over the past couple of years? Clamping down on abortion has been driving the maternal mortality rates even higher! So yes, abortion is obviously part of reproductive care.

You'll have to find someone who dismisses those of limited development as being unhuman to sell that. The hippocratic oath says do no harm so only a doctor who is a psychopath or who flunked basic science can take part. It does not look like health care

 

[fantome profane]

You are correct the core concept of law.

But would you argue that laws against murder and rape are violent or trying to prevent them?

Yes, we as a social use violence to punish rapists and murderers. I am ok with that. I am not ok with using violence or the threat of violence against people who just want control over their own bodies. You obviously are ok with that. I just want to make that clear.

 

[Truth in love]

We both like biology. But it doesn't address
whether a fetus should have the same rights
as a baby.

Its a legal question. On what grounds does the poorly developed human not deserve to live?

 

[Truth in love]

Biology has more accuracy and recision than you do. Zygotes and fetuses are not babies. This is why your point of view is not arguable.


Your point of view is political, and not a valid argument at face value.

Once again you rush in to say I know nothing, but don't offer anything useful.

So let me ask you. On what moral and logical grounds can a human be killed?

 

[fantome profane]

Once again you rush in to say I know nothing, but don't offer anything useful.

So let me ask you. On what moral and logical grounds can a human be killed?

If it is threatening the life or health of another human being. Some people believe you can kill a human beings if it is stealing your property or trespassing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Its a legal question. On what grounds does the poorly developed human not deserve to live?

Because the host wants it out of there.

 

[crossfire]

Its a legal question. On what grounds does the poorly developed human not deserve to live?

One generally has the right to designate who is a welcome guest in your home and who is an unwanted intruder. (Certainly, a woman's body can be considered to be her territory! It is certainly not anyone else's territory!)
In the case of pregnancy, one knows, at the best, that the designated intruder or guest will cause you great torture and anguish (in childbirth) or may even kill you at the worst. People generally have the right to defend their dwelling from unwanted intruders whom they know will torture them at the least, and may very well kill them. Conversely, one also has the right to house welcomed guests in ones residence.
Hence, the right to choose already has legal precedence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

One generally has the right to designate who is a welcome guest in your home and who is an unwanted intruder. (Certainly, a woman's body can be considered to be her territory! It is certainly not anyone else's territory!)
In the case of pregnancy, one knows, at the best, that the designated intruder or guest will cause you great torture and anguish (in childbirth) or may even kill you at the worst. People generally have the right to defend their dwelling from unwanted intruders whom they know will torture them at the least, and may very well kill them. Conversely, one also has the right to house welcomed guests in ones residence.
Hence, the right to choose already has legal precedence.

Well said!

 

[Truth in love]

Because the host wants it out of there.

Okay, so I invite you over (give consent), change my mind (withdraw consent) and shoot you before you have a chance to live on your own as a trespasser and that's all good?

 

[Truth in love]

One generally has the right to designate who is a welcome guest in your home and who is an unwanted intruder. (Certainly, a woman's body can be considered to be her territory! It is certainly not anyone else's territory!)
In the case of pregnancy, one knows, at the best, that the designated intruder or guest will cause you great torture and anguish (in childbirth) or may even kill you at the worst. People generally have the right to defend their dwelling from unwanted intruders whom they know will torture them at the least, and may very well kill them. Conversely, one also has the right to house welcomed guests in ones residence.
Hence, the right to choose already has legal precedence.

I pose the same question I just did to another on this thread.

I invite you over (give consent), change my mind (withdraw consent) and shoot you for trespassing before you have time to leave on your own. Is that okay?