Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[Mr Cheese]

No, it states an ancient, patriarchal society's view of homosexuality.

Actually no, it doesnt, thats poor translation by christians....

Christians not having good translations of Jewish texts?
Well considering Christians have been blaming jews for the death of God until the 1960's !!!! Is this fact hardly surprising?

 

[Enlighten]

My point about church was because you mentioned that your family members attend church. I re-read you initial post and I think I understand your situation. You are wondering how you should treat these ones, correct? The first few verses of Mt. 7 discuss how we are not to judge others. And actually it is the behavior of these ones that is unacceptable not the person themselves. Asking them might just open a discussion that would allow you to listen and then discern the best way to direct them to God's Word. Of course, a self-righteous disposition on your part may cause them to become defensive. Sincerity and humility is in imitation of Jesus and he accomplished much good in touching people's hearts. Also, by initiating a conversation with your cousins you will showing God that you uphold His standards. Remember too, that prayer will help you in deciding what to say.

It seems I may not get this after all, I have read through responses you have given to other members in this thread.

Byt these "ones" etc. I thought you were referring to the "one's" that were trying to get me to choose between church and my family, I now see in your last sentence that this is not the case (I jumped the gun too quick to respond to say I get you).

You said: The first few verses of Mt. 7 discuss how we are not to judge others. And actually it is the behavior of these ones that is unacceptable not the person themselves.

Therefore I mistakenly thought you were in my way of thinking that it's not a "choice" to "BE GAY", *sigh* maybe one day I will find a like-minded Christian who actually is in the same century as me.

If you read back through the thread you will see I have posted my thoughts many, many times.

Thankfully, I have spoken with the "ones" (people who gave me talking to) and actually they now suffer a bit from :foot: when they have the Bible read back to them to highlight that it is them that is not upholding His standards by judging others, yet they are happy to preach what others should be doing using the very same Bible.

I hope that you get my point I am making.

 

[starlite]

So....are you saying your cousins have a choice or they do not have a choice to be "gay"?

 

[Enlighten]

So....are you saying your cousins have a choice or they do not have a choice to be "gay"?

They we're born the way they are, now one thing is they have a choice to pretend they are not gay. But they are true to themselves which I respect completely.

I also was born the way I am but I could pretend that I am gay, so the choice in this manner of thinking works both ways.

I hope this makes sense

 

[DallasApple]

Look ..they (the gays) just get crushes on same sex..Its realy not that complicated.

Love

Dallas

 

[free spirit]

And exactly what behaviour is this?

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the bible is clear, it speaks against sleeping around. It is not clear about "homosexuality" though.... Jesus never says anythign about homosexuality. Any "mention" of homosexuality found in the bible is dubious, especially when we look at the original language... The belief that the bible implicitly says" Homosexual acts are evil" is simply untrue. But enough people get fed a lie, people believe it.

For example,God Helps Them That Help Themselves many think this is biblical, it is not.

Please explain to me which part of Romans 1: 24 to 32 you do not understand, so I can explain it to you. but on the other hand if you are trying to justify the act of homosexuality, i cannot help you in that respect. But you should know our God is a very forgiving and merciful God.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their CONSCIENCE might be dishonoured WITHIN them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the women and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own PERSONALITY the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things, which are not proper.
29 being filled with all unrighteousness,
30 slanderers, arrogant, boastful,
31 without understanding untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful.
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Do you still believe your statement that ; "The belief that the bible implicitly says" Homosexual acts are evil" is simply untrue."

 

[Riverwolf]

Please explain to me which part of Romans 1: 24 to 32 you do not understand, so I can explain it to you. but on the other hand if you are trying to justify the act of homosexuality, i cannot help you in that respect. But you should know our God is a very forgiving and merciful God.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their CONSCIENCE might be dishonoured WITHIN them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the women and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own PERSONALITY the due penalty of their error.

Seems more like Paul's talking about heterosexual men committing homosexual acts in devotion to idols.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things, which are not proper.

29 being filled with all unrighteousness,
30 slanderers, arrogant, boastful,
31 without understanding untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful.
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Funny how I've never met a homosexual person who fits this description, but I've heard of many Christians who do fit it.

 

[free spirit]

Seems more like Paul's talking about heterosexual men committing homosexual acts in devotion to idols.

Your flesh is also a created creature. and if you obey its lusts you are worshiping the creature. but in the first instant we should give hied to our conscience, which is God centered.

Funny how I've never met a homosexual person who fits this description, but I've heard of many Christians who do fit it.

Yes even today we have clergy who give approval to homosexuality
and even clergy who are homosexual themselves. So why not Christians. however you should know they are Christians by name only, they are truly deluding themselves. We are called to holiness and homosexuality does not fit that description.

 

[Riverwolf]

Your flesh is also a created creature. and if you obey its lusts you are worshiping the creature. but in the first instant we should give hied to our conscience, which is God centered.

I have no, I repeat, ZERO, homosexual desires in me. I am 100% heterosexual. I am not aroused AT ALL by the male figure or the penis.

Yes even today we have clergy who give approval to homosexuality
and even clergy who are homosexual themselves. So why not Christians. however you should know they are Christians by name only, they are truly deluding themselves. We are called to holiness and homosexuality does not fit that description.

Not part about heterosexuals committing homosexual acts. This part:

30 slanderers, arrogant, boastful,
31 without understanding untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful.

This is the key part, right here. It fits right in with "by their fruits shall you know them." The fruit of homosexuals being allowed to be homosexual have not met the description given here.

 

[free spirit]

I have no, I repeat, ZERO, homosexual desires in me. I am 100% heterosexual. I am not aroused AT ALL by the male figure or the penis.

I speak in general, when I say "you" I do not mean the actual you.
but I am referring to the human race.

Not part about heterosexuals committing homosexual acts. This part:

30 slanderers, arrogant, boastful,
31 without understanding untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful.

Yes it is a Little over done, but I do not know what is in the heart of homosexuals.

This is the key part, right here. It fits right in with "by their fruits shall you know them." The fruit of homosexuals being allowed to be homosexual have not met the description given here.

That particular scripture is referring to false preachers which we shall know by what they say
33 Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
34 You brood of vipers, how can you being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
AND
15 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?

 

[Riverwolf]

I speak in general, when I say "you" I do not mean the actual you.
but I am referring to the human race.

So, every other person has homosexual desires?

Doubt it. Some do, some don't.

Yes it is a Little over done, but I do not know what is in the heart of homosexuals.

Then you cannot say with certainty that they do not have Christ in their hearts.

That particular scripture is referring to false preachers which we shall know by what they say

33 Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
34 You brood of vipers, how can you being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
AND
15 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?

Which OBVIOUSLY means it can't POSSIBLY apply to other things as well. :sarcastic

 

[free spirit]

Then you cannot say with certainty that they do not have Christ in their hearts.

If they had in their heart the Spirit of Christ, and then have fallen away this scriptures are the answer.
26 For if we go on sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire, which will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
AND,
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the son of God, and put him to open shame.
According to the above they have killed Christ to themselves, so I am certain that Christ is no longer in their heart

Which OBVIOUSLY means it can't POSSIBLY apply to other things as well. :sarcastic

]
The fruit are obvious, our bad deeds are not, our words lays bare what is in our heart, so the word that we speak are the obvious fruits of our heart. so if one justify the evil deed of another he is actually exposing his own heart, also that is why a guilty man should defend himself in court for he will accuse himself.

 

[Riverwolf]

If they had in their heart the Spirit of Christ, and then have fallen away this scriptures are the answer.
26 For if we go on sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire, which will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
AND,
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the son of God, and put him to open shame.
According to the above they have killed Christ to themselves, so I am certain that Christ is no longer in their heart

That is the opinion of the author of Hebrews, which alone should say who the target of this message is: Hebrews.

I propose to you that this entire letter was NOT meant for gentiles like us.

The fruit are obvious, our bad deeds are not, our words lays bare what is in our heart, so the word that we speak are the obvious fruits of our heart. so if one justify the evil deed of another he is actually exposing his own heart, also that is why a guilty man should defend himself in court for he will accuse himself.

The fruits of an action are the RESULTS of an action. What, therefore, are the bad fruits of homosexuality? So far, I've seen nothing but good fruits.

 

[Mr Cheese]

The fruits of an action are the RESULTS of an action. What, therefore, are the bad fruits of homosexuality? So far, I've seen nothing but good fruits.

Spandex, bad tv, bearded women and people called Gerald

I believe these are all bad fruits

 

[JustWondering]

There are countless verses in the New Testament instructing Christians not to judge others, or to see to their own sins before the sins of others, or to leave judgement up to God entirely.

Since it is not proven that God exists we are left to judge each other.

 

[Riverwolf]

Since it is not proven that God exists we are left to judge each other.

How about not judge at all?

 

[free spirit]

That is the opinion of the author of Hebrews, which alone should say who the target of this message is: Hebrews.
I propose to you that this entire letter was NOT meant for gentiles like us.

The scripture are for all people and for all times.

The fruits of an action are the RESULTS of an action. What, therefore, are the bad fruits of homosexuality? So far, I've seen nothing but good fruits.

Our actions Good or bad can be hidden if we so desire, but our words cannot.
You cannot see the fruit that is offensive to God because you think like them.

]
The fruit are obvious, our bad deeds are not, our words lays bare what is in our heart, so the word that we speak are the obvious fruits of our heart. so if one justify the evil deed of another he is actually exposing his own heart, also that is why a guilty man should not defend himself in court for he will accuse himself.

 

[Riverwolf]

The scripture are for all people and for all times.

Then why isn't it titled "All People" instead of just "Hebrews?"

If that particular letter was meant for all people and for all times, provide me the verse FROM THAT LETTER which says so.

Our actions Good or bad can be hidden if we so desire, but our words cannot.

I fail to see how this is relevant. Especially since, and you know this as well as I do, NOTHING can be hidden from God.

You cannot see the fruit that is offensive to God because you think like them.

How could you possibly know how I think? I doubt we've met in real life.

 

[Riverwolf]

The fruit are obvious, our bad deeds are not, our words lays bare what is in our heart, so the word that we speak are the obvious fruits of our heart. so if one justify the evil deed of another he is actually exposing his own heart, also that is why a guilty man should not defend himself in court for he will accuse himself.

So what is the obvious fruit of homosexuality? Why is it bad?

And "God said so" is not enough, because I see no reason to believe God DID say so.

 

[free spirit]

Then why isn't it titled "All People" instead of just "Hebrews?"
If that particular letter was meant for all people and for all times, provide me the verse FROM THAT LETTER which says so.

If you go by the title of the letter you will find that none of them is addressed to you, or to any other race of people.

I fail to see how this is relevant. Especially since, and you know this as well as I do, NOTHING can be hidden from God.

Yes but Jesus said to his followers you should know them by their fruit.

How could you possibly know how I think? I doubt we've met in real life

.
I know you because of your words on the subject, unless you are telling lies