Tell the World

[oldbadger]

Their love and kindness toward others

Love and kindness is physical.

Their understanding and view of God

What understanding and knowledge of God?

Their acceptance of other faiths

Other faiths would not be allowed to vote in a bahai world, CT.

Their personal practice ( individual)

What personal practice?
A Canterbury (UK) Bahai was jailed for defrauding pensioners of all their funds circa 1980

A lot of their teaching is similar but not same as sufism

Which teaching?

I have personally not had problem with Baha'i

Is everybody that you haven't had a problem with spiritual?

But sometimes I have different understanding than example @Trailblazer

How much do you know about Bahai?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You're the best. Always love hearing from you.

Same here.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Love and kindness is physical.


What understanding and knowledge of God?


Other faiths would not be allowed to vote in a bahai world, CT.


What personal practice?
A Canterbury (UK) Bahai was jailed for defrauding pensioners of all their funds circa 1980


Which teaching?


Is everybody that you haven't had a problem with spiritual?


How much do you know about Bahai?

Seems like you would not understand no matter what I say

 

[oldbadger]

That is not the Baha'i Faith OB, but we have told you and explained that before.

Regards Tony

Oh yes.....,. I keep hearing Bahais denying so many aspects of Bahai.
Let's see what I wrote:-
...............differing gender roles. Women would be directed towards children, teaching and household. They would never be allowed to sit on the Bahai World Government.

.............death penalties. Arson carries a 'Burning by fire' death penalty. THere are many other death penalties.

.......................voting rights only for bahais. Only Bahais can vote in Local (LSA), National 9NSA) and World Houses of Justice.

....................... a religious police force and military. These were clearly described by Bahauallah/Abdul Baha. The Bab wished for non Bahais to forfeit property and homes..... other faiths could be turned out of chosen cities.

......................and a male-only world government that believes it is guided by God. All Bahai assemblies believe that their decisions are guided by God. This belief is seriously dangerous, imo.

 

[oldbadger]

Seems like you would not understand no matter what I say

And that answer clearly shows just how intangible and meaningless the word 'spiritual' can be, CT.

Healers, Seers, such folks as these can have spirit clarity and ability.
Now. What does Bahai say about Healers and Seers?

 

[oldbadger]

Seems like you would not understand no matter what I say

Do you believe in Healers, Spiritualists, Seers and such folks? Surely that is Spiritualism?
Bahai does not accept bahai healers.

There is no such thing as Bahá’í healers or a Bahá’í type of healing. In His Most Holy Book Bahá’u’lláh says to consult the best physicians…He never gave us to believe He Himself would heal us through ‘healers’, but rather through prayer and the assistance of medicine and approved treatments.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 277

 

[Aupmanyav]

There was a thread where the Baha'is showed how the prophecies about Kalki also pointed to and were fulfilled by The Bab and/or Baha'u'llah. It is kind of strange that most of them point to The Bab in 1844 and not the main prophet, Baha'u'llah, in 1863.

If Bahais can make Buddha into a messenger of God, then I will not be surprised by whatever they say.

We are being shown how there is no difference in the Messengers.

There is, Tony. There are those messengers whose message has been corrupted or has turned out-of-date; and then there is this uneducated 19th Century messenger (or manifestation) who has the correct message for the date (even if you discount the latest messenger, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas, whose following is larger than Bahais. Bahais do not recognize him as what he claimed to be, the returning Jesus, the Mahdi). I hope Bahais have better evidence for Bab and Bahaollah. Is that true, Tony, not just the incident of the Heavenly maiden visiting Bahaollah in the Iranian prison?

Bahais' contention is that no one brought the message which Bahaollah brought. Neither Mohammad, nor Jesus, nor the older ones, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Abraham, Krishna, Noah or Adam.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is humans idea, not by God.
And you missing the point of what spiritual practice is. It does not have anything to do about ruling others.

The Baha'i Faith is very big on bringing on a world governing body. Eventually, I think they believe they will be the governing body and "God's" laws will be the law of the land. But, until that time, the Baha'i laws and their administrative system is the governing body for all the Baha'is the world over. Here's a quote I found about a world governing body...

For example, the question of universal peace, about which Baha’u’llah says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established: although the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable of establishing universal peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which Baha’u’llah has described will fulfill this sacred task with the utmost might and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation — that is to say parliaments — should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up against it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the supporters of this Supreme Tribunal. Consider what a firm foundation this is! – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 306-307.
​

If the Baha'i Faith is truly from God, then all should be just fine. What could go wrong with a religion having all the power and believing what it says is the infallible Word of God? But that's in the distant future. This other world government system recommended by Abdul Baha' is going to use which laws to run the world? If it's not "God's" laws, then what? Laws the majority votes on?

 

[CG Didymus]

If Bahais can make Buddha into a messenger of God, then I will not be surprised by whatever they say.

I think they have some Buddhist Scriptures that talks about a God, so that's all they need to show that Buddha indeed taught about God and, therefore, must be sent by God... or something like that. I've never seen any official Baha'i statement that supports any Buddhist Scripture, though? Same with Hinduism. It's not like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam where the choice is easy. The Bible, the New Testament, and the Quran. Has any Baha'is ever told you of any Buddhist or Hindu Scripture they believe is "authoritative" and from God? If not, there should be. Or else what would that mean? That the multiple Scriptures were written by men and not by God? Or at least inspired by God?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, I think the world is getting to that place where things are getting bad enough to where if Baha'is can and are going to fix things, they better get to it. But really, an LSA running a town or city? An NSA running a country?

It's all written down, TS.

Inaccurate information has been the tactics of many people, basically they know if they throw poo, some will stick.

The faith does not get into politics. The Baha'i administrative order is for the administration of the Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

A great reply.
I will answer to the last paragraph.

Yes in the very end, just before a human being realize God in fullness from within, absolutely everything has to go. One giving up everything for the truth of God

I've done that three different times. Or at least I thought I had. In my younger, spiritually gullible days, I believed everything I was told by religious/spiritual people. Three different, contradictory beliefs, and with each one I felt God. I was free. I was in tune. And then was taught something else from someone from a different religion that essentially said that the other spiritual teaching was false and what they had was the truth. After the third one, which was born-again Christianity, I started to doubt and question everyone that claimed they had "The Truth". I could give myself up to the truth of God... but which concept of God?

The thing that I do believe is true, is that in some ways it doesn't matter. As long as the person believes it is true, that religion, or those spiritual teachings will work. And considering that at least some of the beliefs out there must be false, then even a false belief can become and seem real to that person. And again, I use the examples of Christians that believe Jesus is God and there is a Satan. Of Mormons that believe Joseph Smith found some Golden Plates. And in Islam, the Ahmadiyya... Was their founder the Promised One or was he false and The Bab and Baha'u'llah were the true ones?

And to people in any of those and other religions does it matter. Each has reasons to believe theirs and to question everybody else's. Especially, if it is working for them. But I think it is also important to listen to those that left a particular religion. We learn some important things about how the religion really works on people. Especially when religious beliefs get their people so locked in that they will do anything for that religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Inaccurate information has been the tactics of many people, basically they know if they throw poo, some will stick.

The faith does not get into politics. The Baha'i administrative order is for the administration of the Faith.

Regards Tony

So, I was misled to believe that the government will be on the shoulders of Baha'u'llah? That there is not a plan to bring God's laws and a Baha'i world government to the world? Well, then what is the plan? Baha'is, even if they become the majority someday, would never get involved with the secular governments that are ruling?

What good would God's laws be if only Baha'i were the ones obligated to follow them? If these laws aren't meant to bring peace and unity to the whole world, to all people, then what good are they? I don't know, but I always thought that Baha'is believed that the Baha'i Faith was going to someday run the world by using God's laws and principles. Was I wrong?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let's see what I wrote:-
...............differing gender roles. Women would be directed towards children, teaching and household. They would never be allowed to sit on the Bahai World Government.

The equality of men and women has been given by God. Equality is not sameness. Each person is free to pursue their potential.

We can not currently grasp how this equality will reach its full potential, as it also requires a deep spiritual awareness.

The education of Children to reach their full potential is one of the highest spiritual obligations given to humanity. For children to find their full potential they need to be raised in a strong loving balance family unit and be given instruction from the time of conception.

Yet it all starts even before conception, as to have a child gives specific responsibilities as gender does have a part to play in conception, birth and the early year care of a child. Lifestyle choices also play a very important and major part. An example of these chiices is that there is no safe level of alcohol, if you are going to have a child each parent will have to stop taking alcohol. The list goes on.

These are precious years for a mother and a father, but at the same time there is no better person to care for a child than a mother, it is they that have been given the two founts of milk.

There will be a world government that is not Baha'i. The world is free to elect all women into that Government if they so choose, the Baha'i would encourage a strong participation of women in these roles.

The Baha'i Administrative Order has women serving in both the elected and appointed roles, the Universal House of Justice is confined to men. Yet the Administrative Order is for the Baha'i Faith and it is spiritual in nature, this is not seen in the light of inequality, but in the light of a God given Law, the reason we are told will be very obvious in the future.

.............death penalties. Arson carries a 'Burning by fire' death penalty. THere are many other death penalties.

Maximum penalties are set, but alongside the Maximum penalty is also the option of life imprisonment.

The details of these laws are for the Universal House of Justice to decide in a distant future.

Meanwhile we follow the laws that the Nation's have set, which are set by due process under the leaders who have been elected by the majority.

The future will also unfold as per the chosen National Governmental systems.

....................... a religious police force and military. These were clearly described by Bahauallah/Abdul Baha. The Bab wished for non Bahais to forfeit property and homes..... other faiths could be turned out of chosen cities.

Wrong, most likely these statements are based on incorrect news or understandings.

Many Laws of the Bayan did not carry over. The Kitáb-i-Íqán contains all the laws.

This is the link The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

If you find what you have stated in there, then you have further basis to support those comments. If you do not, the comments are not correct.

......................and a male-only world government that believes it is guided by God. All Bahai assemblies believe that their decisions are guided by God. This belief is seriously dangerous, imo.

There is no male only world government. The people of the world will elect that Government.

There is a Baha'i Administrative Order, only applicable to the Baha'i, that administer the affairs of the Baha'i Faith.

The two are not the same. The equality between these two systems is like men and women, unity does not mean sameness. There is a unity in diversity. One is for the government of the world, one is to.administer to our spiritual needs.

We have no idea what the future will look like.

Trying to judge a future based on the chaos that is today's political landscape is nothing short of ludicrous.

I wish you well and happy OB. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The thing that I do believe is true, is that in some ways it doesn't matter. As long as the person believes it is true, that religion, or those spiritual teachings will work.

That is demonstrably wrong CG. Look at the world today, many individuals see and teach that Satan will devour all those that do not follow their path, this is found in both Christianity and Islam and some other faiths outside of those have people who see it in the same way. There are those that even radicalise faiths using them for destruction.

What the Baha'u'llah offered is that all the Faiths are from the One God, it is the Oneness of the core teaching that unite us all.

It is the man made doctrine that divides us. So no one needs to give up their Faith, but they do have to practice what the core teachings offer.

So, if doctrinal teachings are clouding our ability to become one people on one planet, how can people consider change, if they are not given alternate views?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, I was misled to believe that the government will be on the shoulders of Baha'u'llah?

I see that as part of prophecy about the rejection of Baha'u'llah by all the Government's of the world.

Baha'u'llah wrote to them all and all Humanity.

I love reading those letters CG, they tell the downfall of those Empires and promise some will endure.

If you do read anything, I highly suggest these are well worth the read, it will also give a glimpse of how prophecy is written and subsequently unfolds.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, I was misled to believe that the government will be on the shoulders of Baha'u'llah? That there is not a plan to bring God's laws and a Baha'i world government to the world? Well, then what is the plan? Baha'is, even if they become the majority someday, would never get involved with the secular governments that are ruling?

What good would God's laws be if only Baha'i were the ones obligated to follow them? If these laws aren't meant to bring peace and unity to the whole world, to all people, then what good are they? I don't know, but I always thought that Baha'is believed that the Baha'i Faith was going to someday run the world by using God's laws and principles. Was I wrong?

To answer this would require a lot CG.

The most great peace is where Mankind finally implements God's Rule on Earth as it is in Heaven. It is now a very distant future, maybe this dispensation in the next 1000 years, maybe not until after the next Messenger?

Why one may ask?

The link I posted in my last reply was that summons to the Most Great Peace, so here it is again CG.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

It was rejected, so it will not happen in our lifetimes, or even many generations to come.

So Baha'u'llah then offered the peace mankind now desparatly needs, the Lesser Peace.

This is not a rule by Baha'u'llah via the Baha'i Faith.

This is what Baha'u'llah offered what was required,

O ye rulers of the earth! Wherefore have ye clouded the radiance of the Sun, and caused it to cease from shining? Hearken unto the counsel given you by the Pen of the Most High, that haply both ye and the poor may attain unto tranquillity and peace. We beseech God to assist the kings of the earth to establish peace on earth. He, verily, doth what He willeth.
O kings of the earth! We see you increasing every year your expenditures, and laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is wholly and grossly unjust. Fear the sighs and tears of this wronged One, and lay not excessive burdens on your peoples. Do not rob them to rear palaces for yourselves; nay rather choose for them that which ye choose for yourselves. Thus We unfold to your eyes that which profiteth you, if ye but perceive. Your people are your treasures. Beware lest your rule violate the commandments of God, and ye deliver your wards to the hands of the robber. By them ye rule, by their means ye subsist, by their aid ye conquer. Yet, how disdainfully ye look upon them! How strange, how very strange!
Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.
O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.
Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Inaccurate information has been the tactics of many people, basically they know if they throw poo, some will stick.

That's why it's best to only quote either Bab, Bahauallah, Abdul Baha, Shoghi or UHJ.
Bahai cannot hide then.

The faith does not get into politics. The Baha'i administrative order is for the administration of the Faith.
Regards Tony

The Baha'i system is all about a Baha'i World Order.... which is why it even has a criminal code to apply, should it ever reach a position of power.

 

[oldbadger]

The equality of men and women has been given by God. Equality is not sameness. Each person is free to pursue their potential.

We can not currently grasp how this equality will reach its full potential, as it also requires a deep spiritual awareness.

The education of Children to reach their full potential is one of the highest spiritual obligations given to humanity. For children to find their full potential they need to be raised in a strong loving balance family unit and be given instruction from the time of conception.

Yet it all starts even before conception, as to have a child gives specific responsibilities as gender does have a part to play in conception, birth and the early year care of a child. Lifestyle choices also play a very important and major part. An example of these chiices is that there is no safe level of alcohol, if you are going to have a child each parent will have to stop taking alcohol. The list goes on.

These are precious years for a mother and a father, but at the same time there is no better person to care for a child than a mother, it is they that have been given the two founts of milk.

There will be a world government that is not Baha'i. The world is free to elect all women into that Government if they so choose, the Baha'i would encourage a strong participation of women in these roles.

The Baha'i Administrative Order has women serving in both the elected and appointed roles, the Universal House of Justice is confined to men. Yet the Administrative Order is for the Baha'i Faith and it is spiritual in nature, this is not seen in the light of inequality, but in the light of a God given Law, the reason we are told will be very obvious in the future.



Maximum penalties are set, but alongside the Maximum penalty is also the option of life imprisonment.

The details of these laws are for the Universal House of Justice to decide in a distant future.

Meanwhile we follow the laws that the Nation's have set, which are set by due process under the leaders who have been elected by the majority.

The future will also unfold as per the chosen National Governmental systems.



Wrong, most likely these statements are based on incorrect news or understandings.

Many Laws of the Bayan did not carry over. The Kitáb-i-Íqán contains all the laws.

This is the link The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

If you find what you have stated in there, then you have further basis to support those comments. If you do not, the comments are not correct.



There is no male only world government. The people of the world will elect that Government.

There is a Baha'i Administrative Order, only applicable to the Baha'i, that administer the affairs of the Baha'i Faith.

The two are not the same. The equality between these two systems is like men and women, unity does not mean sameness. There is a unity in diversity. One is for the government of the world, one is to.administer to our spiritual needs.

We have no idea what the future will look like.

Trying to judge a future based on the chaos that is today's political landscape is nothing short of ludicrous.

I wish you well and happy OB. Regards Tony

I will show Baha'i writings to prove all tomorrow.

.....all this twisting and turning. !!

 

[CG Didymus]

The OT points to Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. BC457 is the Edict that is the starting point for the 69 & 70 week prophecies for Jesus as well as the 2300 year prophecy fo the Bab.

That's what I've been asking. Why is it the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings?

Daniel 9:25 ...From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.​

But then it says...

27 In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”​

So, the Anointed One is dead. During the middle of one of the sevens some ruler puts an end to the sacrifice and sets up the abomination. Who is that ruler and when did he stop the sacrifice? Because that is the only thing in common with Daniel 8:13...

“How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”​

Somebody did this. One of them was Antiochus Epiphanes. The other one is somebody in the middle of one of the sevens.
But the sacrifice and abomination are mentioned again...

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.​

Why not start this one from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem also? But still, we need to know when the daily sacrifice was abolished this time. Or is it the same time as in chapter 8? Or is it the one that happens in the middle of one of the sevens?
The problem is still the same what does the decree to rebuild Jerusalem have to do with some ruler putting a stop to the daily sacrifice and setting up the abomination?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's why it's best to only quote either Bab, Bahauallah, Abdul Baha, Shoghi or UHJ.
Bahai cannot hide then.

The Baha'i system is all about a Baha'i World Order.... which is why it even has a criminal code to apply, should it ever reach a position of power.

I am happy to quote the official translations and also offer advice as what is applicable and not applicable OB.

Many people have overlayed the Baha'i writings with their own worldviews OB.

That are not content unless their worldviews are superimposed.

Unity in our diversity sacres a lot of people, as it does means there will be some great changes needed. Many do not want the change, they have a comfortable life.

Regards Tony