Tell the World

[TransmutingSoul]

I will show Baha'i writings to prove all tomorrow.

.....all this twisting and turning. !!

It will prove what you want to see OB. Not necessarily what is written and intended.

By all means post is as you see it, that is how free will is displayed in this reality.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's what I've been asking. Why is it the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings?
Daniel 9:25 ...From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.But then it says...
27 In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”So, the Anointed One is dead. During the middle of one of the sevens some ruler puts an end to the sacrifice and sets up the abomination. Who is that ruler and when did he stop the sacrifice?

I see that is a different prophecy CG that is the one that tells of Christ's Crucifixion.

If you look at William Millers prediction it shows this prophecy.

William Miller then considered, if this starting point predicted Jesus Christ first coming, then could it be the starting point of the Second Coming?

Then the 2300 year prophecy was applied to the same starting point.

I am not going to offer any interpretation CG, it has no authority and will guide no person. I am happy to offer some thoughts to discuss.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's what I've been asking. Why is it the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings?

Daniel 9:25 ...From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.​

But then it says...

27 In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”​

So, the Anointed One is dead. During the middle of one of the sevens some ruler puts an end to the sacrifice and sets up the abomination. Who is that ruler and when did he stop the sacrifice? Because that is the only thing in common with Daniel 8:13...

“How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”​

Somebody did this. One of them was Antiochus Epiphanes. The other one is somebody in the middle of one of the sevens.
But the sacrifice and abomination are mentioned again...

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.​

Why not start this one from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem also? But still, we need to know when the daily sacrifice was abolished this time. Or is it the same time as in chapter 8? Or is it the one that happens in the middle of one of the sevens?
The problem is still the same what does the decree to rebuild Jerusalem have to do with some ruler putting a stop to the daily sacrifice and setting up the abomination?

I see you are still trying to put a chronological story together.

I do not see prophecy in that light. I see prophecy is fragmented as it is seen in a timeless world and written down in a world bound by time. Some prophecies cover multiple ages as way Messenger fulfils those Prophecies. Some are specific but are included in a different timeline.

So I do not know how to interpret scripture as a story your would like to see written, I can only take the snippets that give meaning in my search.

What I can say is all history has been written into the prophecy and still contains future events.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see you are still trying to put a chronological story together.

I do not see prophecy in that light. I see prophecy is fragmented as it is seen in a timeless world and written down in a world bound by time. Some prophecies cover multiple ages as way Messenger fulfils those Prophecies. Some are specific but are included in a different timeline.

So I do not know how to interpret scripture as a story your would like to see written, I can only take the snippets that give meaning in my search.

What I can say is all history has been written into the prophecy and still contains future events.

Regards Tony

Okay, how do Baha'is interpret the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination to mean? I don't see it even mentioned in the chart of William Miller's calculations.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Has any Baha'is ever told you of any Buddhist or Hindu Scripture they believe is "authoritative" and from God? If not, there should be. Or else what would that mean? That the multiple Scriptures were written by men and not by God? Or at least inspired by God?

They do say that not just Hindu or Buddhist, scriptures of all religions are either corrupted or out-of-date, and that the latest and the correct message is what was revealed by Bahaollah.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am not going to offer any interpretation CG, it has no authority and will guide no person.

But William Miller does have authority? But let's find out what someone with a little authority said...

I see you are still trying to put a chronological story together.

“In Daniel 8:13 it is said: … And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” … That is to say, how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure? Or, when will the morn of Revelation dawn? … Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Bab there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years. That is to say, the fulfilment of the vision of Daniel took place in A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the advent of the Bab. Examine the text of the Book of Daniel and observe how clearly he fixes the year of His advent! There could indeed be no clearer prophecy for a Manifestation than this.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 48-49.​

Okay, so Abdul Baha says that there will be 2300 years and the sanctuary will be cleansed. Cleansed from what? He says from misfortune, ruin and abasement? So, this abasement started in 457BC and lasted until 1844?

How did the decree to rebuild Jerusalem cause ruin and misfortune? But let's pretend it did and the appearance of a manifestation, The Bab, put an end to that abasement? So, with the coming of Jesus and Muhammad the abasement continued?

But then what about the prophecies about the 1290 days and 1335 days?

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” – Daniel 12:11-12.​

So, this is the same daily sacrifice and abomination as before, which means we should start counting the years from 457BC again? No, that would be too consistent and wouldn't get us to the proper year. Now we must get to 1863. Here's the link to this...

There are 1,290 lunar years in the Islamic calendar from the date of Muhammad’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in the year 613, to Baha’u’llah’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in 1863.​

So, what does the year Muhammad declared himself have to do with the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination? Which Abdul Baha' has already said are the misfortunes and abasement and had started, supposedly, in 457BC and continued to 1844. But that is a very good year to make 1290 into lunar years and get to the year 1863. Next...

Reverting to solar years, Daniel gives his final numerical prophecy and is then told that his mission on Earth is finished...

Prophetically, the 1,290 and the 1,335 days/years go together, the first logically following the second. The 1,335 solar years begin with the year 628, the year Muhammad signed a treaty with his enemies in Mecca that signified that recognized the Muslim community in Medina...

The 1,335 solar years added to 628 equals 1,963 years, or the calendar year 1963, a momentous period in Baha’i history. That was the year when members of the world’s National Spiritual Assemblies cast their ballots to elect the first Universal House of Justice – the global administrative body of the Baha’i Faith. The declaration of Baha’u’llah in 1863 (the 1,290 years) was followed in 1963 (the 1,335 years) by completion of the three-tiered Baha’i administrative order at the local, national and international levels, devised by Baha’u’llah for the internal governance of the Baha’i Faith.​

Now the difference between 1290 and 1335 is 45. So how do Baha'is make them 100 years apart? Easy. The first one starts when Muhammad declared himself in 613 and we add 1290 lunar years. The second one, the 1335, are made into solar years and starts in 628. Where in the context of Daniel does it say to start counting these numbers from two different places? In fact it says from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away.

I know you can't and don't want to explain any of this. But what is sad... is you make it sound like I'm the one confused and not "seeing" the obvious truth here. But yes, I do. Baha'is need to have these prophecies point to their two prophets, and they have successfully found a way to do that. Congratulations.

 

[CG Didymus]

They do say that not just Hindu or Buddhist, scriptures of all religions are either corrupted or out-of-date, and that the latest and the correct message is what was revealed by Bahaollah.

The real teaching of Buddha is the same as the teaching of Jesus Christ. The teachings of all the Prophets are the same in character. Now men have changed the teaching. If you look at the present practice of the Buddhist religion, you will see that there is little of the Reality left. Many worship idols although their teaching forbids it. – Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 63.​

Then this article about Baha'u'llah being the 10th Avatar...

“Hindus also believe in the incarnations of Lord Vishnu. We know that Lord Krishna was the eighth, Buddha is the ninth and Baha’u’llah, we believe, is the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu, [the] Kalki avatar. And when [the] Kalki avatar appears, he will recreate the human race, and he will make their minds as pure as crystal.” – Sanatana Dharma Renewed

But there’s a problem: The life, mission and teachings of Baha’u’llah bear little resemblance to the traditional Hindu prophecies regarding Kalki. So what’s going on here? Is Baha’u’llah somehow the long-expected advent of Kalki, despite the details of the Hindu prophecies?​

The author then shows why Baha'u'llah fulfills the prophecies despite not "literally" fulfilling them.

I still have not found one place where any Hindu or Buddhist Scripture is recognized as authoritative. But it sounds like what Baha'is do believe is that all of the sacred writings have been changed and "little of the reality left". Convenient way to say they believe in the religion and in Buddha and Krishna but not in what the religion teaches and believes in today. So, who can argue with that? The Baha'is are always right.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The Baha'i Faith is very big on bringing on a world governing body. Eventually, I think they believe they will be the governing body and "God's" laws will be the law of the land. But, until that time, the Baha'i laws and their administrative system is the governing body for all the Baha'is the world over. Here's a quote I found about a world governing body...

For example, the question of universal peace, about which Baha’u’llah says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established: although the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable of establishing universal peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which Baha’u’llah has described will fulfill this sacred task with the utmost might and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation — that is to say parliaments — should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up against it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the supporters of this Supreme Tribunal. Consider what a firm foundation this is! – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 306-307.
​

If the Baha'i Faith is truly from God, then all should be just fine. What could go wrong with a religion having all the power and believing what it says is the infallible Word of God? But that's in the distant future. This other world government system recommended by Abdul Baha' is going to use which laws to run the world? If it's not "God's" laws, then what? Laws the majority votes on?

I do not know if Baha'i will be the leading religion in the future, but I do believe people are afraid of "losing their control" if a major religion they "think" take away their right to freely think. Something I do not believe Baha'i do.

 

[oldbadger]

I am happy to quote the official translations and also offer advice as what is applicable and not applicable OB.

Luv it!
I have often said that Bahai is a stop-go, yes-no, go-here-go-there kind of religion, and now I see that the Bahai writings are only any good if they are interpreted and applied as required....by Bahai.

Many people have overlayed the Baha'i writings with their own worldviews OB.

Luv it!
So in future the writings of the Bab, Bahauallah, Abdul-Baha, Shoghi and the UHJ will only be acceptable if they suit particular circumstances. People who quote writings which show how Bahai 'body-swerves' will be tagged as ...... wicked, possibly?

That are not content unless their worldviews are superimposed.

Using the wrong Bahai writings at the wrong time and in the wrong place means that they are not real, until required by Bahai?
1984. much?

Unity in our diversity sacres a lot of people, as it does means there will be some great changes needed. Many do not want the change, they have a comfortable life.

Luv it!
Unity-in Diversity?? Brilliant sell!

 

[Aupmanyav]

The real teaching of Buddha is the same as the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Then this article about Baha'u'llah being the 10th Avatar...

Don't tell that to anyone. Buddha did not believe in existence of soul. That negates God too. What you consider real or unreal is a personal matter. That way why focus of Jesus? Even Zoroaster said same things. There is nothing original in the message of Jesus. What you think as 'real teachings' have been the rules of all societies, even those among animals.
That is a Bahai video and Bahai Speak, created by Bahaiteachings.org. What is eternal does not need any change and 'Sanatan' means eternal.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not know if Baha'i will be the leading religion in the future, but I do believe people are afraid of "losing their control" if a major religion they "think" take away their right to freely think. Something I do not believe Baha'i do.

Just check how many people Bahaollah ex-communicated from Bahai fold.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Just check how many people Bahaollah ex-communicated from Bahai fold.

Just check our why the Baha'i Faith remains undivided. It's called the Covenant.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

There is no doubt that the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have fulfilled prophecy

I doubt it...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Brilliant sell!

Just check how many people Bahaollah ex-communicated from Bahai fold.

Good to remember OB, what God offers, thus what Baha'u'llah offered, it's not for sale.

Life is a free will choice. One can only tell the world.

It's all free here. The Baháʼí Faith - Home

Consider the quoted reply above and then ponder why I can not post the official site of any other Faith, that any of those branches would consider the one official site for the faiths of Muhammad, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Moses etc.

But here is a couple

Christianity - Beliefs and History of Faith in God and Jesus Christ
Homepage for Christianity - Christianity
Al-Islam.org
The Religion of Islam

In offering that, I also acknowledge the complexity of domain ownership and that names can be owned by those that should not have them.

All the best, regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I doubt it...

Which is ok, we all have that choice.

All the best in life and the new year.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know if Baha'i will be the leading religion in the future, but I do believe people are afraid of "losing their control" if a major religion they "think" take away their right to freely think. Something I do not believe Baha'i do.

The problems would include capitalism and the "freedom" to be as immoral as you want. Oh, and for the U.S. limiting guns.

Not that long ago a business owner could exploit the workers. And I'm sure it still goes on. But Baha'is want to limit the extremes of wealth and poverty. Are the rich going to go for this?

Then sexual things. Baha'is don't want men with men, women with women. Men and women have to be married before they do it. The usual, no adultery. Some people have no problem with these, but will they impose their morality on the whole of society? Oh, and that gets into internet sites. Ban them? Oh, and Baha'is are against drugs and alcohol. How they going to force that? And if they don't, who's going to stop?

Then guns, Baha'is even want nations to disarm and keep only enough weapons in order to keep security. Which, for some might be jet fighters, battle ships, tanks, nuclear missiles? But individuals? I don't know how far Baha'is expect to go with disarming people.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The problems would include capitalism and the "freedom" to be as immoral as you want. Oh, and for the U.S. limiting guns.

Not that long ago a business owner could exploit the workers. And I'm sure it still goes on. But Baha'is want to limit the extremes of wealth and poverty. Are the rich going to go for this?

Then sexual things. Baha'is don't want men with men, women with women. Men and women have to be married before they do it. The usual, no adultery. Some people have no problem with these, but will they impose their morality on the whole of society? Oh, and that gets into internet sites. Ban them? Oh, and Baha'is are against drugs and alcohol. How they going to force that? And if they don't, who's going to stop?

Then guns, Baha'is even want nations to disarm and keep only enough weapons in order to keep security. Which, for some might be jet fighters, battle ships, tanks, nuclear missiles? But individuals? I don't know how far Baha'is expect to go with disarming people.

The part about weapons i do fully agree with, and even go further, it would be best if all weapons was destroyed and nobody made new weapons.

 

[Sheldon]

Good to remember OB, what God offers, thus what Baha'u'llah offered, it's not for sale.

Life is a free will choice. One can only tell the world.

It's all free here. The Baháʼí Faith - Home

No offence, but I feel like a snake oil salesman has just offered me a free sample, as long as I promise only to buy from him in the future.

Life is free, and death, the rest always makes demands of one sort or another. For some reason I am minded to quote that arrogant egotists, and colossus of European politics Bismarck... "Only a fool learns from his own mistakes."

 

[CG Didymus]

Luv it!
Unity-in Diversity?? Brilliant sell!

So, how much "free" thought is allowed? Wasn't it you that knew a very knowledgeable Baha'is that got his voting rights taken away for something he said or did?

Just check how many people Bahaollah ex-communicated from Bahai fold.

Breaking the Covenant is one thing, but I had met a Baha'i that started a magazine called "Dialogue". The Baha'i leadership shut him down. Here's an excerpt from the article that got them in trouble...

• 
  However, there is clear and compelling evidence that the fortunes of the United States Baha'i community have stagnated, at least by some objective measures, within the past decade. Americans are loathe to face such stagnancy or admit that any decline is occurring, but even a cursory look at a few basic facts and indicators reveals the trends:
  
  Declarations have slowed to a maintenance pace. In the 1960s and early '70s,10,000 declarations a year, many among young people, were not unusual. Since 1974, enrollments have hovered around the 3,000 per year level, which is approximately what it takes to replace attrition to withdrawals, pioneering, deaths, etc.
  
  Youth declarations have dropped even more precipitously as we have been unable to sustain the influx of youth and young adults at levels comparable to the 1969-1973 period, when unprecedented numbers of youth enrolled in the Faith. Consequently the total of 19,000 Baha'i youth in the American Baha'i community in the peak year (1971) has declined to a total of 2,800 in 1987.
  
  While the goals of the Nine, Five, and Seven Year Plans were, for the most part, won, the American Baha'i community has yet to achieve anything close to widespread enrollments and the beginning of the process of "entry by troops" expected here for over a decade.
  
  Inactivity and alienation are difficult to measure quantitatively. However, the most commonly accepted gauge of inactivity-Baha'is who are listed as being "address unknown" status-now comprise a staggering percentage of the total community: 40-45,000 names of 100,000 believers. In the 1970s, this figure generally stayed within the 30 percent range, while now almost 50 percent of our community are "address unknown"-a figure that likely indicates increasing inactivity and alienation among the believers.
  

The article went on to make "modest" proposals to fix things. Maybe now things are getting better. It seems like Baha'is online have a lot of freedom to say what they want.

 

[CG Didymus]

The part about weapons i do fully agree with, and even go further, it would be best if all weapons was destroyed and nobody made new weapons.

What I like about you and the Baha'is is that the hearts and minds of people are changed to where the anger, the hate and wanting to get hurt others gives way to love and forgiveness. 'Cause, if people still hate all they need is a fist or a rock to take out a person.

When I was drafted in the early 70's, my complaint was that I was going to be trained to kill people in Southeast Asia because they think differently than us? And then if it's okay to kill people because they don't think like me and I disagree with them, who's going to stop me from killing almost everyone I meet? They draft board didn't care. I walked out and later was charged with draft evasion. Then the war ended, and Nixon got in trouble, so they dropped the charges.