The archaeological and historical evidence of the early history of the Jews before 600 BCE.

[Jayhawker Soule]

It remains there is not any Hebrew written records before 900 BCE, and rather scant evidence between 900 and 600 BCE.

So, you slide from

(1) There are no records written by Hebrews before 800-600 BCE. ...

to

... rather scant evidence between 900 and 600 BCE.

This is typical of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[shunyadragon]

So, you slide from



to



This is typical of intellectual dishonesty.

No, because I proposed an gradual development of the United Kingdom from 900 to 600 BCE, and yes there is scant evidence between 900 and 600 BCE, but enough to show the evolution of tribes to a united Kingdom. No coherent written records and limited evidence of the development of cities.

The first documented writing in Hebrew are the silver scrolls fated ~600 BCE.

 

[shunyadragon]

If interpreting the Mernepteh stele it is only the Egyptian consideration of Canaan you should be taking, not what you believe.

It is not the only consideration. In fact the Mernepteh stele is over rated and somewhat controversial. The overall archaeological evidence has determined that it is difficult to separate Canaanite and Phoenicians, Phoenicians considered themselves Canaanites and their cultures and language were indistinguishable.

Phoenicia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Phoenicians directly succeeded the Bronze Age Canaanites, continuing their cultural traditions following the decline of most major cultures in the Late Bronze Age collapse and into the Iron Age without interruption. It is believed that they self-identified as Canaanites and referred to their land as Canaan, indicating a continuous cultural and geographical association.[8] The name Phoenicia is an ancient Greek exonym that did not correspond precisely to a cohesive culture or society as it would have been understood natively.[9] Therefore, the division between Canaanites and Phoenicians around 1200 BC is regarded as a modern and artificial division.

The Amarna letters describe life in the Canaan in 1350BCE or thereabouts. The Mernepteh stele puts a timeline of at least 100 years afterwards.

Not much difference in time for Egypt.

The Philistines established themselves in the Pentopolis, however as we know the Hebrew presence in the Judaen Hills predates their arrival.

Yes predated, but the Hebrews were pastoral tribes with limited agriculture no written language and without cities in this time frame.

 

[shunyadragon]

I was unaware of the Gezer calender, very informative.

Now I wonder if perhaps these Hebrew farm-types were in fact in multiple locations throughout this Egyptian controlled area.
Perhaps they were residing and working the land as you say throughout all the known hill and valley areas that were perfect for farming and growing crops.

Now...and just hear me out here....what if they had a farmers union of sorts? Like a collective for reasons such as sharing seeds with each other, or perhaps one area was growing more of one type of crop compared to the other, or for animal husbandry. Regardless, lets say that it would have made sense for these farmers to be part of an alliance? collective? workers union? at the very least friendship? They were all subject to Egypt so they would have had this in common.

Even though Egypt controlled most of cities of the Levant. The did not control the country side where the Hebrews had their villages, especially in the Hills of Judah. Yes, there was a close relationship between the tribes and trade.

Yes, you are aboslutely right. The majority of historians and Egyptologists agree the inscription on the Merneptah Stele refers to Israel. In case anyone has any doubts, the Stele also includes a determinative that indicates Israel is a foreign people, a tribal or ethnic group.

The majority of historians agree that the inscription refers to the Hebrew people, and not a State - Israel

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is not the only consideration. In fact the Mernepteh stele is over rated and somewhat controversial.

This arrogant posturing is nothing but tedious: ---> ignore-list

 

[GoodAttention]

The majority of historians agree that the inscription refers to the Hebrew people, and not a State - Israel

Therefore the majority of historians agree that the reference Israel is to the Hebrew people known to have lived in the Judaen Hills.

NOT STATE I DID NOT SAY STATE I AM ONLY MAKING A CONCLUSION.

 

[River Sea]

What's this fruit farming? Or what?

Each year, the Sukkot festivities become a remembrance during the fall harvest while also remembering the 40-years exodus era as they traveled to Yisrael by presenting all they brought with them.

etrog ( אתרוג‎) – the fruit of a citron tree.
lulav ( לולב‎) – a ripe, green, closed frond from a date palm tree.
hadass ( הדס‎) – boughs with leaves from the myrtle tree.
aravah ( ערבה‎) – branches with leaves from the willow tree

 

[shunyadragon]

Therefore the majority of historians agree that the reference Israel is to the Hebrew people known to have lived in the Judaen Hills.

NOT STATE I DID NOT SAY STATE I AM ONLY MAKING A CONCLUSION.

Well ah. . . your previous post referred to "Israel" not the Hebrew people, The reference to "Israel" would refer tot a stele in post #155.

 

[Betho_br]

Well ah. . . your previous post referred to "Israel" not the Hebrew people, The reference to "Israel" would refer tot a stele in post #155.

Archaeological Excavations:

Do sites such as Hazor, Megiddo, Samaria and Jerusalem have archaeological evidence dating back to periods before 1000 BC? Do these excavations provide artifacts and structures that help reconstruct Israel's history?

Historical Documents:

Assyrian Inscriptions: Do the inscriptions of Assyrian kings, such as Shalmaneser III and Tiglath-Pileser III, mention interactions with kings of Israel and Judah? Indicating the existence of these kingdoms as political entities before 1000 BC? Babylonian Chronicles: Babylonian documents, such as the chronicles of Nebuchadnezzar II, report events such as the conquest of Jerusalem and the deportation of its inhabitants, so do they also indicate the presence of Judah before the first millennium BC as a political entity?

Thank you.

 

[GoodAttention]

Well ah. . . your previous post referred to "Israel" not the Hebrew people, The reference to "Israel" would refer tot a stele in post #155.

If you keep biting your tongue it will eventually fall off

 

[shunyadragon]

Archaeological Excavations:

Do sites such as Hazor, Megiddo, Samaria and Jerusalem have archaeological evidence dating back to periods before 1000 BC? Do these excavations provide artifacts and structures that help reconstruct Israel's history?

Historical Documents:

Assyrian Inscriptions: Do the inscriptions of Assyrian kings, such as Shalmaneser III and Tiglath-Pileser III, mention interactions with kings of Israel and Judah?

No mention of the Kings of Israel. You have to get specific on the references.

Indicating the existence of these kingdoms as political entities before 1000 BC?

No, need references?

Babylonian Chronicles: Babylonian documents, such as the chronicles of Nebuchadnezzar II, report events such as the conquest of Jerusalem and the deportation of its inhabitants,

After 600 BCE

so do they also indicate the presence of Judah before the first millennium BC as a political entity?

Need specific independent references as to what you are referring to

Thank you.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There is no such thing as parting og the sea,

If there is no parting of the sea and no volcano then the Exodus account goes out of the window. I think there is no need for taking such a strong position. Actually, the parting of the sea took place at the Indus River because mud volcano erupted upstream and the volcano is at Mount Tafton in south Iran, where sulfuric emissions are being emitted even today. So, the basic difficulty is that if you do not want to look at the alternative locations for these events then you will continue to dismiss the biblical account.

Yes if you reject the sound academic objective evidence of archeology, history and science concerning the history of the Hebrews, for believing in the Created history and mythology of the Pentateuch mixed with Hindu mythology ah . . . there will be no progress in our discussion

I am a researcher. Research means that the academic consensus is never taken as give, and one has to rework the academic consensus. I agree that there is an academic consensus that exodus is not reality but I am saying that Exodus is reality out of my research. Now if you do not want to look at my research, I cannot do anything further.

No, as documented by science, archaeology and known documented history.

You see again the same problem. That if we say that there was no parting of the sea and no volcano. Then we can dismiss any inspired text. My point is that if the Bible is an inspired text as I believe it to be, then let us be a little open in our mind and look at if these events might have taken place at another location. I don't understand what is the difficulty in looking at it even if we later on dismiss it. When you say no objective evidence is available from India, I don't understand what is objective. I am showing you how the river parted, I am showing you that a volcano exists on the path to Israel.

Please tell me what more objective evidence you want to establish this.

 

[paarsurrey]

Based on the archaeological, and historical evidence the following will be proposed in this Thread.

(1) There are no records written by Hebrews before 800-600 BCE. In fact the only records known are from other Kingdoms, like Egypt and Kingdoms that defeated Hebrews in battle.
(2) Before 1000 BCE the Hebrews were various pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah in the North. No known written language or written records from Independent sources,
(3) The Canaanites dominated the region and the City of Jerusalem up to ~1550 BCE
(4) Egypt conquered most of the Levant and colonized the region between ~1550 - 1000 BCE. The Amarna letters, archaeology and other Egyptian records document this. During this time the Levant was contested between the Egyptians and the Hittites.
(5)The Period of upheaval in the late Bronze Age collapse Egypt's hold on the Levant began to deteriorate in ~1100 BCE, by ~1000 BCE
(6) There is a lack of independent records to determine who occupied Jerusalem in the Period o Upheaval.
(7) The Hebrews began to increase in fluence and prosperity, in the region as a loose Confederation as the Egyptians retreated from the Levant. Invasions by the Sea people? and Phoenicians controlled the costal regions. The Philistines dominated the Southern Levant.
(8) A line of Kings including David likely existed between 1200 BCE and 800 BCE and on, but there is no evidence to support a United Monarchy independent of the Bible, before 900-800 BCE..

Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
What language did they speak in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
Did they have their religious "scripture or its verbal narration" in Hebrew in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Your question concerning serials has no meaning to me, the Translation was a people called Israel likely translates as Hebrews or Israelites.

What language did they speak in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Language spoken was a Hebrew variation of Canaanite. There written language before 800-600 BCE was variation of Proto-Canaanite.

Did they have their religious "scripture or its verbal narration" in Hebrew in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Earliest Hebrew script was a silver prayer scroll dated~600BCE. before this the few examples we have are Proto=Hebrew Canaanite common to the Levant region, The Moabites used this script earlier then the Hebrews.

 

[River Sea]

Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
What language did they speak in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
Did they have their religious "scripture or its verbal narration" in Hebrew in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?Today we think through BC AD how come?Back when they thought through sun moon?Because back when they didn't think through BC ADWhat caused our numbering system BC numbers gets smaller towards then AD numbers become larger?If thinking today serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ? that would be AD because increased numbers? My question is, where's the Benjamín's today in Israel, how come I never see their writings, do anyone know where their public writings are, where are the Benjamín tribe in Israel in this forum, I'm curious why the lacking of?
AI Overview
Learn more…Opens in new tab

According to the Bible, the tribe of Benjamin was one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The tribe was named after Jacob's youngest son with his second wife, Rachel. After the death of Moses, Joshua gave the tribe of Benjamin a small but powerful region of land on the western banks of the Jordan River, north of the Dead Sea. This area was strategically located for both trade and military purposes, between Judah to the south and Ephraim to the north.

Where are they then, how come I hear from Jews but never hear from the Benjamins in Israel?

Jews are actively publicly write in lots of areas online but I hadn't of yet heard from the Benjamins in Israel why is that?

So to your question @paarsurrey (keep in mind I could be wrong)

Your question
Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Thinking of today numbers increase numbers is AD so what are these people called today?

according to @Ehav4Ever they're called dirty dusty and reasons why @Ehav4Ever claims "Ivri" is the correct way to "tansliterate" the term (עברי - עיברי) found in ancient Yisraeli/Israeli/Jewish texts, am I understanding this correctly or had I mistaken? Oh another word which is the same word is Ivri is lvrith that @Ehav4Ever often uses because the word Hebrew means dirty dusty, due to traveling. If I understand correctly.

Thus, Ivri is a word native to Yisraelis/Israelis/Jews. The term Hyksos or Habiru is a different word native to the Egyptians and others.

Correction. Ehav4Ever did not create the term "Ivri". "Ivri" is the correct way to "tansliterate" the term (עברי - עיברי) found in ancient Yisraeli/Israeli/Jewish texts, as shown above.

What confuses me is all these scrolls I notice on them is modern Hebrew language not ancient at all. How come modern Hebrew languages are on these scrolls?

I learned from @Ehav4Ever that either the scrolls are passed down however was made by this person using modern Hebrew language or to take a year with a Rabbi and learn how to write on the scroll however using Modern Hebrew language

Proof

Wait I want to do this first then I'll proof that on the scrolls is modern Hebrew

Good point. But the counter position would be that those that have been accepted into the Jewish religion are deemed to be Zera. Otherwise converted Jews and also offspring of non-Jewish women would be excluded from Zera.

The Romans changed the Jewish law from zera passing down through male, to egg female, the Romans pressured the Jews to give up their law and to change it.

This means there's Romans laws mixed in with Jewish laws, how many of the 613 laws are actually from the Romans who pressures to submit to Romans and please the Romans to what law they ordered to have?

Oh zera means seed, no longer through the seen, because the Romans pressured must go through egg female to be passed down.

How come the Romans pressured this for what was the reasoning?

How difficult was it to say no to the Romans?

Now to proof that these scrolls that looks so ancient are actually modern Hebrew

Everything is going wrong for me. help

Ok let me go find

Proof = modern Hebrew on scrolls so not Ancient at all

Not true.

I addressed that already. See below

Now @paarsurrey

Lets translate a scroll
right click using search image with google

I click translate and one can even listen to it too

it continues further of translation so how is this Ancient its modern today Hebrew language

Modern Hebrew Language was put on the scrolls and told me that it's Ancient, but it's not Ancient, it's Modern

Google can translate this because it's Modern today language of Hebrew

Claims Made in the Hebrew Torah about "Multiple Water Sources" Changed to Blood
In Egypt
Multiple Rivers
Lakes
The Nile
Standing Stored Water
And the Lord said to Moses, He said to Aaron, take away your rod and lay your hand on the waters of Egypt, on their rivers, on their rivers, and on their lakes, and on all the waters of their waters, and there will be blood, and there will be blood in all the land of Egypt, and on the trees, and on the stones. In the eyes of Pharaoh and his servants, all the water that he poured turned into blood
Water in trees and in stone/underground
Water in the Nile was changed in front of the King of Egypt.

Those letters are Modern that people make these scrolls and learn from a Rabbi how to do so it takes a year.

I also learn this from @Ehav4Ever

So how come so important to make people think these scrolls are Ancient when they're Modern?

Can you help me understand this? Anyone?

@paarsurrey forgive me, this post is a mess. How is it that (I spent a lot of time on this post) how did it screw up where - this is when everything gets -

This post looks like a disaster, what happened?

How did that happen?

What a mess

 

[River Sea]

@paarsurrey

The above post is a mess, something happened that it's a disaster

Maybe I could try again later.

So please forgive any mess in this post above this one, I'll leave it, because maybe still it makes sense, but how did I make a mess?

 

[River Sea]

Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
What language did they speak in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
Did they have their religious "scripture or its verbal narration" in Hebrew in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Regards

@paarsurrey

Let's try this first

Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

What language did they speak in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
Did they have their religious "scripture or its verbal narration" in Hebrew in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ? Today we think through BC AD how come? Back when they thought through sun moon? Because back when they didn't think through BC AD

What caused our numbering system BC numbers gets smaller towards then AD numbers become larger?

If thinking today serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ? that would be AD because increased numbers?

My question is, where's the Benjamín's today in Israel, how come I never see their writings, do anyone know where their public writings are, where are the Benjamín tribe in Israel in this forum, I'm curious why the lacking of?

AI Overview
Learn more…Opens in new tab

According to the Bible, the tribe of Benjamin was one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The tribe was named after Jacob's youngest son with his second wife, Rachel. After the death of Moses, Joshua gave the tribe of Benjamin a small but powerful region of land on the western banks of the Jordan River, north of the Dead Sea. This area was strategically located for both trade and military purposes, between Judah to the south and Ephraim to the north.

Where are they then, how come I hear from Jews but never hear from the Benjamins in Israel?

Jews are actively publicly write in lots of areas online but I hadn't of yet heard from the Benjamins in Israel why is that?

So to your question @paarsurrey (keep in mind I could be wrong)

Your question
Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Thinking of today numbers increase numbers is AD so what are these people called today?

according to @Ehav4Ever they're called dirty dusty and reasons why @Ehav4Ever claims "Ivri" is the correct way to "tansliterate" the term (עברי - עיברי) found in ancient Yisraeli/Israeli/Jewish texts, am I understanding this correctly or had I mistaken? Oh another word which is the same word is Ivri is lvrith that @Ehav4Ever often uses because the word Hebrew means dirty dusty, due to traveling. If I understand correctly.

 

[paarsurrey]

The archaeological and historical evidence of the early history of the Jews before 600 BCE.​

Based on the archaeological, and historical evidence the following will be proposed in this Thread.

(1) There are no records written by Hebrews before 800-600 BCE. In fact the only records known are from other Kingdoms, like Egypt and Kingdoms that defeated Hebrews in battle.
(2) Before 1000 BCE the Hebrews were various pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah in the North. No known written language or written records from Independent sources,
(3) The Canaanites dominated the region and the City of Jerusalem up to ~1550 BCE
(4) Egypt conquered most of the Levant and colonized the region between ~1550 - 1000 BCE. The Amarna letters, archaeology and other Egyptian records document this. During this time the Levant was contested between the Egyptians and the Hittites.
(5)The Period of upheaval in the late Bronze Age collapse Egypt's hold on the Levant began to deteriorate in ~1100 BCE, by ~1000 BCE
(6) There is a lack of independent records to determine who occupied Jerusalem in the Period o Upheaval.
(7) The Hebrews began to increase in fluence and prosperity, in the region as a loose Confederation as the Egyptians retreated from the Levant. Invasions by the Sea people? and Phoenicians controlled the costal regions. The Philistines dominated the Southern Levant.
(8) A line of Kings including David likely existed between 1200 BCE and 800 BCE and on, but there is no evidence to support a United Monarchy independent of the Bible, before 900-800 BCE..

Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
What language did they speak in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?
Did they have their religious "scripture or its verbal narration" in Hebrew in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Everything is going wrong for me. help


Ok let me go find

Proof = modern Hebrew on scrolls so not Ancient at all



Now @paarsurrey

Lets translate a scroll
right click using search image with google

View attachment 94012
I click translate and one can even listen to it too

View attachment 94013
it continues further of translation so how is this Ancient its modern today Hebrew language

Modern Hebrew Language was put on the scrolls and told me that it's Ancient, but it's not Ancient, it's Modern

Google can translate this because it's Modern today language of Hebrew

Claims Made in the Hebrew Torah about "Multiple Water Sources" Changed to Blood
In Egypt
Multiple Rivers
Lakes
The Nile
Standing Stored Water
And the Lord said to Moses, He said to Aaron, take away your rod and lay your hand on the waters of Egypt, on their rivers, on their rivers, and on their lakes, and on all the waters of their waters, and there will be blood, and there will be blood in all the land of Egypt, and on the trees, and on the stones. In the eyes of Pharaoh and his servants, all the water that he poured turned into blood
Water in trees and in stone/underground
Water in the Nile was changed in front of the King of Egypt.

Those letters are Modern that people make these scrolls and learn from a Rabbi how to do so it takes a year.

I also learn this from @Ehav4Ever

So how come so important to make people think these scrolls are Ancient when they're Modern?

Can you help me understand this? Anyone?

@paarsurrey forgive me, this post is a mess. How is it that (I spent a lot of time on this post) how did it screw up where - this is when everything gets -

This post looks like a disaster, what happened?

How did that happen?

What a mess

I quite agree with one. G-d did talk to Moses* but Torah is neither literally (written by) from G-d nor by Moses, please, right?:

*4:165
And We sent some Messengers whom We have already mentioned to thee and some Messengers whom We have not mentioned to thee — and Allah spoke to Moses particularly —

Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

In Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Urdu.

www.alislam.org

Right?

Regards
______________________
*4:165 in original Arabic text, ever fresh from Muhammad's time:

وَرُسُلًا قَدۡ قَصَصۡنٰہُمۡ عَلَیۡکَ مِنۡ قَبۡلُ وَرُسُلًا لَّمۡ نَقۡصُصۡہُمۡ عَلَیۡکَ ؕ وَکَلَّمَ اللّٰہُ مُوۡسٰی تَکۡلِیۡمًا ﴿۱۶۵

 

[Harel13]

Modern Hebrew Language was put on the scrolls and told me that it's Ancient, but it's not Ancient, it's Modern

There are two points:

First, the image you copied and translated is that of a modern Torah scroll. The script of modern Torah scrolls is very similar to the script used in modern Hebrew.

Second, it was easy for the program to translate because ancient Hebrew is pretty similar to modern Hebrew in many respects, unlike the many differences between ancient Greek and modern Greek.

 

[River Sea]

First, the image you copied and translated is that of a modern Torah scroll. The script of modern Torah scrolls is very similar to the script used in modern Hebrew.

Second, it was easy for the program to translate because ancient Hebrew is pretty similar to modern Hebrew in many respects, unlike the many differences between ancient Greek and modern Greek.

@Harel13
I did not know that ancient Hebrew is similar to modern Hebrew, yet ancient Greek is different from modern Greek. What do you think contributed to ancient Hebrew remaining similar to modern Hebrew?

@paarsurrey I had mistaken your asking

Were they called "Hebrews" or " Israelites", in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Actually you were referring to

(1) There are no records written by Hebrews before 800-600 BCE. In fact the only records known are from other Kingdoms, like Egypt and Kingdoms that defeated Hebrews in battle.
(2) Before 1000 BCE the Hebrews were various pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah in the North. No known written language or written records from Independent sources,
(3) The Canaanites dominated the region and the City of Jerusalem up to ~1550 BCE
(4) Egypt conquered most of the Levant and colonized the region between ~1550 - 1000 BCE. The Amarna letters, archaeology and other Egyptian records document this. During this time the Levant was contested between the Egyptians and the Hittites.
(5)The Period of upheaval in the late Bronze Age collapse Egypt's hold on the Levant began to deteriorate in ~1100 BCE, by ~1000 BCE
(6) There is a lack of independent records to determine who occupied Jerusalem in the Period o Upheaval.
(7) The Hebrews began to increase in fluence and prosperity, in the region as a loose Confederation as the Egyptians retreated from the Levant. Invasions by the Sea people? and Phoenicians controlled the costal regions. The Philistines dominated the Southern Levant.
(8) A line of Kings including David likely existed between 1200 BCE and 800 BCE and on, but there is no evidence to support a United Monarchy independent of the Bible, before 900-800 BCE..

I was thinking you were asking the actual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ? and because increased I was thinking AD

@paarsurrey you asked

What language did they speak in serials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

Sanskrit eastward and Germanic westward

Arabic Hebrew is closer to Sanskrit or German?

Online says

Are Sanskrit and German similar?
Both the Germanic languages and Sanskrit are 'sister languages', branches/daughters of the same `mother - the 'Proto-Indo-European' language that originated from the steppe region of 'north-central Asia'.