The archaeological and historical evidence of the early history of the Jews before 600 BCE.

[shunyadragon]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Did YHWH ever learn how to overcome jealousy, and if not, how come?

YHWH God) does not learn anything. The portrayal of these attributes of God is from an ancient cultural perspective and not God. If God exists God would be universal beyond the limited human cultural beliefs.

@shunyadragon

Deuteronomy 31:1-2

Joshua to Succeed Moses​

31 Then Moses went out and spoke these words to all Israel: 2 “I am now a hundred and twenty years old and I am no longer able to lead you. The Lord has said to me, ‘You shall not cross the Jordan.’ 3 The Lord your God himself will cross over ahead of you. He will destroy these nations before you, and you will take possession of their land. Joshua also will cross over ahead of you, as the Lord said.

Question: How does the Lord God cross over ahead of others?

Unanswerable confusing question that cannot be answered concerning God. There is no evidence that Joshua or Moses ever existed.

@GoodAttention
What caused the Hebrews to migrate by land rather than by sea? Why couldn't the sea people and Hebrews travel together by sea? Were there any mud volcanoes that threatened the sea people?

What all did the sea people do that others felt they were invaded by? What tools did sea people carry across the sea that they used to invade others?



@Betho_br @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @GoodAttention
Canaanite jugs that were brought out from the depths of the sea that were once on their ships. So the Canaanites also travel by sea, similar to the sea people? Did the Canaanites and Sea people get along and help each other? Did Egyptians ever travel by sea?
I'll ask this to @Tamino did Egyptians ever travel by sea?
The Hebrews only travel by land; how come?

Hebrews were isolated in the hill country and valleys of the central Levant. The primarily traded with the Canaanites, and fought battles with everyone else and mostly lost.

As described before the Phoenicians were Canaanites. Canaanites inland over time were defeated nu the Egyptians and Assyrians. Since the small city states traded among them selves it would be difficult to distinguish between them.

@Colt @Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Yes, what all the Canaanites went through as they couldn't communicate, due to what ways did others exploit them?

A bit confusing. Simply The Canaanites, Hebrews, Phoenicians, Moabites and other evolved Canaanite tribes spoke and wrote in versions of Canaanite the original culture they evolved from.

What tribes did intermarry because that did happen? Yet it was dominating through males, as his and his tribes stories were passed on, compared to if a woman marries into another tribe and then intermarries, her stories are gone.

Not necessarily women were story tellers to the children over the millennia.

@Sargonski @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Abram: Ab means father ram means what? The Ram family? Father of the Ram family?
Who are the Canaanites wives and husbands to what Ab Father to what name family?

This is not necessarily the origin of Abraham. It is a stretch interpretation. Another is that it is derived from A Brahman.

 

[Truthseeker]

There is no evidence that Joshua or Moses ever existed.

It is in the Bible and they were mentioned by Prophets after them, or at least Moses was. It is a matter of faith in Prophets later for me.

Interestingly Moses is actually an Egyption name, though in the Bible they try to derive Moses in Hebrew terms.

 

[GoodAttention]

@GoodAttention
What caused the Hebrews to migrate by land rather than by sea? Why couldn't the sea people and Hebrews travel together by sea? Were there any mud volcanoes that threatened the sea people?

What all did the sea people do that others felt they were invaded by? What tools did sea people carry across the sea that they used to invade others?

I have no idea friend, I was only giving my interpretation of the Stele and the potential relationship to the Israelites (Hebrews).

 

[River Sea]

@GoodAttention @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Sargonski @Tamino @Mrpp @shunyadragon @Betho_br @paarsurrey

Your thoughts, please, about what Alice C. Linsley wrote in her blog.

The Exodus Narrative from a Different Angle

Alice C. Linsley Analysis of the kinship pattern of Moses’ family reveals that Moses was Horite Hebrew. The Horites and the Sethites const...

biblicalanthropology.blogspot.com

Thursday, February 9, 2023​

The Exodus Narrative from a Different Angle​

Alice C. Linsley
Analysis of the kinship pattern of Moses’ family reveals that Moses was Horite Hebrew. The Horites and the Sethites constituted the Hebrew ruler-priest caste. The Hebrew married only within their caste (endogamy) which explains why so many of the people in the Hebrew Scriptures are related by marriage or have common ancestry.

The oldest known site of Horite Hebrew worship is Nekhen on the Nile (4200 BC). This settlement predates the building of the Great Pyramids at Giza and the step pyramid of King Djoser (Third Dynasty). The oldest known tomb, with painted mural on its plaster walls, is located in Nekhen and dates to c. 3500–3200 BC.

The Horite mounds and the Sethite mounds were sacred Hebrew settlements along the Nile. Though separate groups or moieties, they shared common religious practices and beliefs, and they worshiped the same God and served the same king.

It is clear in the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts (2400-2000 BC) that the Horites and the Sethites maintained separate settlements. Utterance 308 addresses them as separate entities: "Hail to you, Horus in the Horite Mounds! Hail to you, Horus in the Sethite Mounds!"

PT Utterance 470 contrasts the Horite mounds with the mounds of Seth, designating the Horite Mounds "the High Mounds."

This diagram shows the relationship between Moses and Seir, the Horite Hebrew ruler mentioned in Genesis 36.



Moses was a sent-away son

As the son of Amram's cousin bride, Moses was not Amram's proper heir. Analysis of the social structure of the early Hebrew suggests that Moses was sent to live for a time with his maternal uncle Jethro in Midian (avuncular residence). That is the same pattern exhibited by Jacob who was sent away to live for a time with his maternal uncle Laban. In both cases, these sent-away sons struck out to establish territories of their own. That is one way to think of the "Exodus", except Moses didn't live to rule over a territory of his own.

Keep in mind also, that the biblical narrative of the Exodus is the story of only one Hebrew clan, the clan of Jacob who was called Israel. There were many other Hebrew clans and some of them were living in Canaan. The Hebrew had dispersed widely before the time of Abraham. They had already settled in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and other regions of the Ancient Near East.

Exodus 17:12 describes an event that connects Moses to an earlier Horite ruler. "But Moses' hands grew weary, so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it, while Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side. So his hands were steady until the going down of the sun".


King Hor (c. 1800 B.C.)

About 300 years before the time of Moses, there was a Horite king whose statue shows him with up-raised arms over his head. From predynastic times, this ka/kah (K3) symbol indicated divine authority, potency, and the sustaining power of the Spirit.

 

[shunyadragon]

@GoodAttention @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Sargonski @Tamino @Mrpp @shunyadragon @Betho_br @paarsurrey

Your thoughts, please, about what Alice C. Linsley wrote in her blog.

The Exodus Narrative from a Different Angle

Alice C. Linsley Analysis of the kinship pattern of Moses’ family reveals that Moses was Horite Hebrew. The Horites and the Sethites const...

biblicalanthropology.blogspot.com

Thursday, February 9, 2023​

The Exodus Narrative from a Different Angle​

Alice C. Linsley
Analysis of the kinship pattern of Moses’ family reveals that Moses was Horite Hebrew. The Horites and the Sethites constituted the Hebrew ruler-priest caste. The Hebrew married only within their caste (endogamy) which explains why so many of the people in the Hebrew Scriptures are related by marriage or have common ancestry.

The oldest known site of Horite Hebrew worship is Nekhen on the Nile (4200 BC). This settlement predates the building of the Great Pyramids at Giza and the step pyramid of King Djoser (Third Dynasty). The oldest known tomb, with painted mural on its plaster walls, is located in Nekhen and dates to c. 3500–3200 BC.

The Horite mounds and the Sethite mounds were sacred Hebrew settlements along the Nile. Though separate groups or moieties, they shared common religious practices and beliefs, and they worshiped the same God and served the same king.

It is clear in the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts (2400-2000 BC) that the Horites and the Sethites maintained separate settlements. Utterance 308 addresses them as separate entities: "Hail to you, Horus in the Horite Mounds! Hail to you, Horus in the Sethite Mounds!"

PT Utterance 470 contrasts the Horite mounds with the mounds of Seth, designating the Horite Mounds "the High Mounds."

This diagram shows the relationship between Moses and Seir, the Horite Hebrew ruler mentioned in Genesis 36.



Moses was a sent-away son

As the son of Amram's cousin bride, Moses was not Amram's proper heir. Analysis of the social structure of the early Hebrew suggests that Moses was sent to live for a time with his maternal uncle Jethro in Midian (avuncular residence). That is the same pattern exhibited by Jacob who was sent away to live for a time with his maternal uncle Laban. In both cases, these sent-away sons struck out to establish territories of their own. That is one way to think of the "Exodus", except Moses didn't live to rule over a territory of his own.

Keep in mind also, that the biblical narrative of the Exodus is the story of only one Hebrew clan, the clan of Jacob who was called Israel. There were many other Hebrew clans and some of them were living in Canaan. The Hebrew had dispersed widely before the time of Abraham. They had already settled in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and other regions of the Ancient Near East.

Exodus 17:12 describes an event that connects Moses to an earlier Horite ruler. "But Moses' hands grew weary, so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it, while Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side. So his hands were steady until the going down of the sun".


King Hor (c. 1800 B.C.)

About 300 years before the time of Moses, there was a Horite king whose statue shows him with up-raised arms over his head. From predynastic times, this ka/kah (K3) symbol indicated divine authority, potency, and the sustaining power of the Spirit.

I consider this a hypothetical scenario based on the assumption that Moses existed as described in Exodus.

I share @Tamino 's skepticism concerning Alice Lindsey's strong religious bias in Biblical Anthropology.

 

[Betho_br]

The Exodus, as described in the Hebrew Bible, is a central event in Israel’s origin. However, its historicity has been a subject of debate among scholars.

1. Merneptah Stele:
   • Dating to around 1219 BCE, the Merneptah Stele is the oldest extrabiblical record mentioning a group called Israel.
   • The stele was erected by Pharaoh Merneptah to commemorate his military victories. It mentions Israel as a defeated entity.
   • This inscription suggests that at least by the 13th century BCE, there was a group identified as Israel in Egypt.
2. Place Names:
   • The Bible reports that the Israelites, as slaves, were forced to build the store cities of Pithom and Ramses.
   • After the ten plagues, the Israelites left Egypt and crossed the Red Sea (or Reed Sea), which miraculously parted for them.
   • The biblical names Pithom, Ramses, and Red Sea correspond to the Egyptian names Pi-Ramesse, Pi-Atum, and (Pa-)Tjuf, respectively.
   • These names appear together in Egyptian texts only during the Ramesside period (13th-11th centuries BCE).
3. Dating:
   • The date of the Exodus is debated, but two main theories prevail: one in the 15th century BCE and another in the 13th century BCE.
   • Archaeological evidence, including the mentioned place names, supports a connection to the Ramesside period.
   • Many scholars favor an Exodus during the 19th Dynasty of Egypt, in the 13th century BCE.
4. Controversies:
   • Some modern scholars reject the entire Exodus story, considering it a pious fabrication written centuries after the events.
   • However, the thematic presence of the Exodus throughout the Bible suggests an authentic memory of this event, even if wrapped in literary and mythological elements.

In summary, while the debate continues, Archaeological evidence and place names may support an Exodus during the Ramesside period, in the 13th century BCE.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Exodus, as described in the Hebrew Bible, is a central event in Israel’s origin. However, its historicity has been a subject of debate among scholars.

1. Merneptah Stele:
   • Dating to around 1219 BCE, the Merneptah Stele is the oldest extrabiblical record mentioning a group called Israel.
   • The stele was erected by Pharaoh Merneptah to commemorate his military victories. It mentions Israel as a defeated entity.
   • This inscription suggests that at least by the 13th century BCE, there was a group identified as Israel in Egypt.
2. Place Names:
   • The Bible reports that the Israelites, as slaves, were forced to build the store cities of Pithom and Ramses.
   • After the ten plagues, the Israelites left Egypt and crossed the Red Sea (or Reed Sea), which miraculously parted for them.
   • The biblical names Pithom, Ramses, and Red Sea correspond to the Egyptian names Pi-Ramesse, Pi-Atum, and (Pa-)Tjuf, respectively.
   • These names appear together in Egyptian texts only during the Ramesside period (13th-11th centuries BCE).
3. Dating:
   • The date of the Exodus is debated, but two main theories prevail: one in the 15th century BCE and another in the 13th century BCE.
   • Archaeological evidence, including the mentioned place names, supports a connection to the Ramesside period.
   • Many scholars favor an Exodus during the 19th Dynasty of Egypt, in the 13th century BCE.
4. Controversies:
   • Some modern scholars reject the entire Exodus story, considering it a pious fabrication written centuries after the events.
   • However, the thematic presence of the Exodus throughout the Bible suggests an authentic memory of this event, even if wrapped in literary and mythological elements.

The highlighted cannot be seriously considered as justification for the validity of Exodus being historically based. The scholars actually have a wider range of views as to the historicity of Exodus. I recognize the possibility of the expulsion of forced migration of 'some' Hebrews/Canaanites from Egypt, but not on the scale described in Exodus. Moses maybe a semi-historical figure, but not as portrayed in Exodus. There is a real problem with Joshua and the account of the army invading the Levant at that time

I on the other hand do not completely deny the validity of Exodus, but consider the historical narrative based loosely on some historical events, but not justifiable as history as written.

In summary, while the debate continues, Archaeological evidence and place names may support an Exodus during the Ramesside period, in the 13th century BCE.

Yes, the circumstances may describe "something" happened in this time period, but no, it does not support the Biblical account. Some events that occurred in the 15th century BCE may be a basis for the created Biblical accounts.

The plagues described in the Biblical are likely based on real catastrophic events at different times in Egyptian and the Levant history. There is evidence of a severe drought in the 13th century. Other potential catastrophic events earlier in Egyptian and Levant memories that contribute to the accounts.

What Caused the 10 Plagues of Egypt? | HISTORY

A volcanic eruption and shift in climate could have triggered a series of ancient calamities—from pestilence to locusts—as described in the Bible.

www.history.com

The biblical story of the 10 Plagues of Egypt is central to the origin of the Passover holiday, which commemorates the emancipation of the Israelites from slavery in ancient Egypt. As described in the Book of Exodus, the plagues were a succession of apocalyptic calamities exacted upon ancient Egypt as divine punishments for an unnamed pharaoh’s refusal to free the Israelites from captivity.

While little archaeological and historical evidence exists to corroborate the biblical accounts of the plagues, the existence of Moses or the mass exodus of the Israelites, scientists theorize that a chain reaction of natural phenomena could explain the seemingly supernatural catastrophes portrayed in the Bible.

“From an historical standpoint, the first nine plagues resemble natural events well known in the Middle East, save for their patterns and rapid succession,” reported a 2008 study in the Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.

 

[Tamino]

. The Horites and the Sethites constituted the Hebrew ruler-priest caste.

I highly doubt that. The link given just contains a lot of speculation and is not based on any Egyptological evidence.

The oldest known site of Horite Hebrew worship is Nekhen on the Nile (4200 BC).

Nekhen was a Hebrew site? The term "Hebrew" didn't even exist yet, and afaik no structure found in Nekhen shows any signs of Hebrew religion or customs. Citation needed.

This settlement predates the building of the Great Pyramids at Giza and the step pyramid of King Djoser (Third Dynasty). The oldest known tomb, with painted mural on its plaster walls, is located in Nekhen and dates to c. 3500–3200 BC.

True, but not related to any Hebrews

The Horite mounds and the Sethite mounds were sacred Hebrew settlements along the Nile.

In the pyramid texts, it sounds more like they where mythical places.
The Egyptian term iA.t is most commonly used for sacred places, sometimes for estates, never for cities. How does she get the idea that those were settlements?
And still no connection to any Hebrews.

Though separate groups or moieties, they shared common religious practices and beliefs, and they worshiped the same God and served the same king.

Citation needed.

It is clear in the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts (2400-2000 BC) that the Horites and the Sethites maintained separate settlements. Utterance 308 addresses them as separate entities: "Hail to you, Horus in the Horite Mounds! Hail to you, Horus in the Sethite Mounds!"

Horus and Seth are a pair of two separate Gods that are either a complementary pair or adversaries.OF COURSE they are mentioned separately.
Again, no Hebrew priest castes anywhere in utterance 308. I checked. The translation AND the original text.

PT Utterance 470 contrasts the Horite mounds with the mounds of Seth, designating the Horite Mounds "the High Mounds."

Which is surprising how? Seeing as the divine name Horus is derived from a word meaning "high"??
PT470 talks about the pharao travelling to the sky, to be with his father, the sun god. It's definitely not talking about mundane Nile valley settlements.
Isn't it great that these Utterances are available in the TLA, including the Egyptian original, so we can just go and fact check that idiocy.

Text Sentences

tla.digital

This diagram shows the relationship between Moses and Seir, the Horite Hebrew ruler mentioned in Genesis 36.

How does an Iron Age book inform about Early Bronze Age rulers?
Nice hypothesis you got there. How about some archaeology to back it up?

There were many other Hebrew clans and some of them were living in Canaan. The Hebrew had dispersed widely before the time of Abraham. They had already settled in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and other regions of the Ancient Near East.

Citation needed. An extra-biblical citation, that is.

Exodus 17:12 describes an event that connects Moses to an earlier Horite ruler. "But Moses' hands grew weary, so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it, while Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side. So his hands were steady until the going down of the sun".


King Hor (c. 1800 B.C.)

About 300 years before the time of Moses, there was a Horite king whose statue shows him with up-raised arms over his head. From predynastic times, this ka/kah (K3) symbol indicated divine authority, potency, and the sustaining power of the Spirit.

Raised hands where a gesture of adoration throughout Egyptian history.
And moreover, raising your arms in praise or adoration or blessing is a pretty common thing in lots of cultures.

Yes, the symbol of the Ka-soul is raised arms.
The statue shown here is but one example of literally thousands. Probably 10s of thousands. Depictions of this hieroglyph, depictions of the Ka spirit, depictions of people wir their arms raised in prayer... They're all over the place from 3000 BC to 300 CE.
How do you cherry-pick one single example and try to establish a direct connection to a single instance of Moses raising his arms... and expect to get away with it?

I checked on this Alice Lindsay
I found this quote from her:
"Biblical Anthropology is rigorous in that no assertion can be made without data and no assumption can stand untested. "

Genesis and Biblical Anthropology: A Response to Fr. Jefferies | The North American Anglican

I am writing as a pioneer in the emerging science of Biblical Anthropology, an empirical approach to the canonical Scriptures that avoids denominational interpretations. A Biblical Anthropologist studies the Scriptures to identify anthropologically significant data that clarifies the cultural...

northamanglican.com

Seems to me like the lady is not quite up to her own standards.

 

[Betho_br]

The highlighted cannot be seriously considered as justification for the validity of Exodus being historically based. The scholars actually have a wider range of views as to the historicity of Exodus. I recognize the possibility of the expulsion of forced migration of 'some' Hebrews/Canaanites from Egypt, but not on the scale described in Exodus. Moses maybe a semi-historical figure, but not as portrayed in Exodus. There is a real problem with Joshua and the account of the army invading the Levant at that time

I on the other hand do not completely deny the validity of Exodus, bit consider historical narrative based loosely on some historical events, but not justifiable as history as written.

Your technical and pertinent analysis is indeed the solid foundation for any structured discussion; I do not debate this. Although the historical conjecture I posted may initially seem hypothetical, it has the potential to evolve into substantiated truths through evidence and rigorous analysis, provided time allows. As new data becomes available and is interpreted, the conjecture may solidify into historical fact if corroborated by a critical and systematic investigation. For now, it remains a matter of certainty, belief, and faith.

 

[shunyadragon]

Your technical and pertinent analysis is indeed the solid foundation for any structured discussion; I do not debate this. Although the historical conjecture I posted may initially seem hypothetical, it has the potential to evolve into substantiated truths through evidence and rigorous analysis, provided time allows. As new data becomes available and is interpreted, the conjecture may solidify into historical fact if corroborated by a critical and systematic investigation. For now, it remains a matter of certainty, belief, and faith.

I do believe you overstate your conclusions in your posts. I consider it an interesting discussion considering possibilities,

 

[Betho_br]

I do believe you overstate your conclusions in your posts. I consider it an interesting discussion considering possibilities,

For those who do not believe in the Torah as a historical source, a hypothesis that can be formulated from the article is that the narrative of the Exodus, while not supported by tangible archaeological evidence of a mass event, may have roots in real historical events, such as the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt. This expulsion, which occurred in the first half of the second millennium BCE, could have generated collective memories among Levantine groups who lived in Egypt. These groups, when forced to leave the region, might have recounted their stories of departure, influencing the formation of the Exodus tradition.

Additionally, the mention of Israel on an Egyptian stele suggests that the presence of Levantine groups in Egypt and their experiences may have contributed to the construction of the Exodus narrative. The acceptance of this story in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, reflected in ancient texts such as the prophecies in the book of Hosea (12 and 13), indicates that the Exodus tradition may have been shaped by shared historical experiences, even if there is no concrete evidence of a large-scale exodus. Thus, the historical connection between Egypt and the Levant could have facilitated the movement of people between these regions, feeding the Exodus narrative over time.

Did it get better now?

 

[GoodAttention]

@GoodAttention @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Sargonski @Tamino @Mrpp @shunyadragon @Betho_br @paarsurrey

Your thoughts, please, about what Alice C. Linsley wrote in her blog.

Alice C. Linsley hold a position in the Humanities faculty at Midway University which was founded by the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ).

Any view she presents comes with a Christian bias, which is accepting the scriptures as literary sources of data first and foremost. I would take any comment or conclusions Alice presents regarding the Hebrews, Israelities, Moses, or any person mentioned in the (translated) Hebrew scriptures with a pillar worth of salt.

 

[shunyadragon]

For those who do not believe in the Torah as a historical source, a hypothesis that can be formulated from the article is that the narrative of the Exodus, while not supported by tangible archaeological evidence of a mass event, may have roots in real historical events, such as the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt. This expulsion, which occurred in the first half of the second millennium BCE, could have generated collective memories among Levantine groups who lived in Egypt. These groups, when forced to leave the region, might have recounted their stories of departure, influencing the formation of the Exodus tradition.

Additionally, the mention of Israel on an Egyptian stele suggests that the presence of Levantine groups in Egypt and their experiences may have contributed to the construction of the Exodus narrative. The acceptance of this story in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, reflected in ancient texts such as the prophecies in the book of Hosea (12 and 13), indicates that the Exodus tradition may have been shaped by shared historical experiences, even if there is no concrete evidence of a large-scale exodus. Thus, the historical connection between Egypt and the Levant could have facilitated the movement of people between these regions, feeding the Exodus narrative over time.

Did it get better now?

Well ah . . . I would like to address the Hyksos issue. Probably the most misunderstood people of the ancient Middle East and not described what at the time would be called Hebrews. They were a Semitic people likely Canaanite and intermarried commonly with Egyptians. The following I hope clarifies the question of who the Hyksos were and their roll in Egyptian history.

The Hyksos - ARCE

If you study “fake news” from ancient Egypt, you would consider the Hyksos a band of nasty, marauding outsiders who invaded…

arce.org

The Hyksos​

By Danielle Candelora University of California, Los Angeles

If you study “fake news” from ancient Egypt, you would consider the Hyksos a band of nasty, marauding outsiders who invaded and then brutally ruled the Nile Delta until heroic kings expelled them. In fact, the Hyksos had a more diplomatic impact, contributing to progress in culture, language, military affairs and even the introduction of the iconic horse and chariot. The story of these two competing explanations reveals much about ancient Egypt and this mysterious group.

As a word, Hyksos is simply the Greek version of an Egyptian title, Heka Khasut, meaning “rulers of foreign lands/hill countries.” While much is misunderstood, we know the Hyksos comprised a small group of West Asian individuals who ruled Northern Egypt, especially the Delta, during the Second Intermediate Period. These rulers were recorded as Egypt’s 15th dynasty in the Turin Royal Canon, the only known king’s list that documents their existence.

For decades, the writings of the Ptolemaic Egyptian historian, Manetho, influenced the popular and scholarly interpretations of the Hyksos. Preserved in Josephus’s Contra Apionem I, Manetho presented the Hyksos as a barbaric horde, “invaders of an obscure race” who conquered Egypt by force, causing destruction and murdering or enslaving Egyptians. This account continued in Egyptian texts from the Second Intermediate Period and New Kingdom. As Egyptology developed, years of debate over the extent of destruction and the ethnicity of the “Hyksos people” transpired. Only in more recent decades have the Hyksos been revealed as a small group of rulers (we know of six) and not a population or ethnic group.

The research that led to this new image began in 1966 when the Austrian Academy of Sciences opened the still-ongoing excavations at Tell el Dab’a, (ancient Avaris or Hwt-Waret) and identified the site as the Hyksos capital. Along with nearby archaeological investigations, it became apparent that no sound evidence supported the invasion tale. Instead, the excavations at Tell el Dab’a demonstrated that immigrants from Southwest Asia (the Levant) had been relocating to the Eastern Nile Delta for centuries, with this immigration peaking in the mid-12th dynasty through the early Second Intermediate Period. Examination of religious architecture, deities, burial practices, food and artifacts such as weapons and toggle pins all indicated a large population of West Asian individuals. In fact, many of these elements combined Egyptian practices with that of the immigrants, suggesting Tell el Dab’a was a culturally blended community featuring intermarriage and peaceful coexistence. Several West Asian individuals were even officials for Middle Kingdom kings, overseeing trade in the Near East and lucrative mining expeditions to the Sinai Peninsula. Rather than an “invasion,” it appears that as the centralized authority of Egyptian kings declined, elites at Tell el Dab’a increased their local power until, by a coup or simply a slow, peaceful process, they took the Heka Khasut title and became kings in their own right.

Read on . . .

 

[GoodAttention]

Well ah . . . I would like to address the Hyksos issue. Probably the most misunderstood people of the ancient Middle East and not described what at the time would be called Hebrews. They were a Semitic people likely Canaanite and intermarried commonly with Egyptians. The following I hope clarifies the question of who the Hyksos were and their roll in Egyptian history.

The Hyksos - ARCE

If you study “fake news” from ancient Egypt, you would consider the Hyksos a band of nasty, marauding outsiders who invaded…

arce.org

The Hyksos​

By Danielle Candelora University of California, Los Angeles

If you study “fake news” from ancient Egypt, you would consider the Hyksos a band of nasty, marauding outsiders who invaded and then brutally ruled the Nile Delta until heroic kings expelled them. In fact, the Hyksos had a more diplomatic impact, contributing to progress in culture, language, military affairs and even the introduction of the iconic horse and chariot. The story of these two competing explanations reveals much about ancient Egypt and this mysterious group.

As a word, Hyksos is simply the Greek version of an Egyptian title, Heka Khasut, meaning “rulers of foreign lands/hill countries.” While much is misunderstood, we know the Hyksos comprised a small group of West Asian individuals who ruled Northern Egypt, especially the Delta, during the Second Intermediate Period. These rulers were recorded as Egypt’s 15th dynasty in the Turin Royal Canon, the only known king’s list that documents their existence.

For decades, the writings of the Ptolemaic Egyptian historian, Manetho, influenced the popular and scholarly interpretations of the Hyksos. Preserved in Josephus’s Contra Apionem I, Manetho presented the Hyksos as a barbaric horde, “invaders of an obscure race” who conquered Egypt by force, causing destruction and murdering or enslaving Egyptians. This account continued in Egyptian texts from the Second Intermediate Period and New Kingdom. As Egyptology developed, years of debate over the extent of destruction and the ethnicity of the “Hyksos people” transpired. Only in more recent decades have the Hyksos been revealed as a small group of rulers (we know of six) and not a population or ethnic group.

The research that led to this new image began in 1966 when the Austrian Academy of Sciences opened the still-ongoing excavations at Tell el Dab’a, (ancient Avaris or Hwt-Waret) and identified the site as the Hyksos capital. Along with nearby archaeological investigations, it became apparent that no sound evidence supported the invasion tale. Instead, the excavations at Tell el Dab’a demonstrated that immigrants from Southwest Asia (the Levant) had been relocating to the Eastern Nile Delta for centuries, with this immigration peaking in the mid-12th dynasty through the early Second Intermediate Period. Examination of religious architecture, deities, burial practices, food and artifacts such as weapons and toggle pins all indicated a large population of West Asian individuals. In fact, many of these elements combined Egyptian practices with that of the immigrants, suggesting Tell el Dab’a was a culturally blended community featuring intermarriage and peaceful coexistence. Several West Asian individuals were even officials for Middle Kingdom kings, overseeing trade in the Near East and lucrative mining expeditions to the Sinai Peninsula. Rather than an “invasion,” it appears that as the centralized authority of Egyptian kings declined, elites at Tell el Dab’a increased their local power until, by a coup or simply a slow, peaceful process, they took the Heka Khasut title and became kings in their own right.

Read on . . .

You raise some good points here, and as you say the "take over" by a foreign, Semitic, peoples or family as the ruling Pharoah or dynasty happening at a defined moment, rather than an invasion makes more sense.

However, for such an take over to happen, the population of Egypt at the time could have had a significant number of Semitic people. The army could have also been made up of men and leaders who were either sympathetic to these foreign rulers, or were the "Hyksos", renegade generals who became rulers of Egypt through a coup type event.

If this is the case, it certainly adds perspective to the story of Moses, such as when he kills an Egyptian, was this person a Semitic person, and therefore adds an element of justification? Was Pharoah Egyptian or was he Semitic? In which case when Moses proclaims God will kill all first-born Egyptian sons, since Pharoah doesn't die is this to say he isn't a "true" Egyptian?

 

[shunyadragon]

You raise some good points here, and as you say the "take over" by a foreign, Semitic, peoples or family as the ruling Pharoah or dynasty happening at a defined moment, rather than an invasion makes more sense.

However, for such an take over to happen, the population of Egypt at the time could have had a significant number of Semitic people. The army could have also been made up of men and leaders who were either sympathetic to these foreign rulers, or were the "Hyksos", renegade generals who became rulers of Egypt through a coup type event.

If this is the case, it certainly adds perspective to the story of Moses, such as when he kills an Egyptian, was this person a Semitic person, and therefore adds an element of justification? Was Pharoah Egyptian or was he Semitic? In which case when Moses proclaims God will kill all first-born Egyptian sons, since Pharoah doesn't die is this to say he isn't a "true" Egyptian?

I believe the reference documents that there was a "hostile" takeover by renegrade generals. The Hyksos were on a friendly diplomatic basis at the time with Egypt and may have became more influential and moved in a coup? when Egypt declined and weakened in the extreme 12th century drought period.

 

[GoodAttention]

When Egypt declined and weakened in the extreme 12th century drought period.

This seems to conflict with the Hyksos timeline of 15th to 16th century BCE.

 

[shunyadragon]

This seems to conflict with the Hyksos timeline of 15th to 16th century BCE.

Sorry for the confusion, The Hyksos did move in 16th and 15th centuries, immigration continued up into the 12th century but their influence extended up till the New Kingdom in the 11th century



Later in the Second Intermediate Period, the native Egyptian kings ruling the south from Thebes (the 17th dynasty) began a campaign to expel the Hyksos. The mummy of Seqenenre Taa was discovered riddled with battle wounds, including a fatal axe strike on the forehead that forensically matches a West Asian style axe. The next Theban king, Kamose, erected multiple stelae at Karnak Temple recording his own campaign, further vilifying the Hyksos with propagandistic rhetoric. These stelae reference the Egyptian conquest of several cities, including the protracted siege of Avaris itself. Records of Kamose cease after his third regnal year, and his brother (or son) Ahmose took up the campaign. The Autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ibana, a soldier under Ahmose and later kings, records a destruction of Avaris and expulsion of the Hyksos. But no solid evidence supports such destruction. Instead, archaeological material at Tell el Dab’a indicates a West Asian population continued to live there into the New Kingdom, raising questions about how many people were actually expelled. Regardless, later Egyptian texts (Speos Artemidos Inscription of Hatshepsut) continued to malign the Hyksos. They were also mocked in literary tales like the Tale of Apepi and Seqenenre. The goal of these tales seems to be the legitimization of less secure Egyptian reigns.

Despite these conflicts between reality and the official record, the rule of the Hyksos and the immigrants from which they arose affected New Kingdom culture, language, military and even conceptions of what it meant to be an Egyptian king. This notable period was marked by the influx of new technologies into Egypt, from the horse and chariot to glass manufacturing. The Hyksos influence also set precedents for the international diplomacy that was followed in the Amarna Letters, and many believe the Hyksos spurred New Kingdom imperial expansion. Further research on the Hyksos and their important contributions will illuminate the broader history of the civilization of ancient Egypt.

 

[shunyadragon]

Any independent archeological evidence the Horites ever existed?

 

[GoodAttention]

Sorry for the confusion, The Hyksos did move in 16th and 15th centuries, immigration continued up into the 12th century but their influence extended up till the New Kingdom in the 11th century



Later in the Second Intermediate Period, the native Egyptian kings ruling the south from Thebes (the 17th dynasty) began a campaign to expel the Hyksos. The mummy of Seqenenre Taa was discovered riddled with battle wounds, including a fatal axe strike on the forehead that forensically matches a West Asian style axe. The next Theban king, Kamose, erected multiple stelae at Karnak Temple recording his own campaign, further vilifying the Hyksos with propagandistic rhetoric. These stelae reference the Egyptian conquest of several cities, including the protracted siege of Avaris itself. Records of Kamose cease after his third regnal year, and his brother (or son) Ahmose took up the campaign. The Autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ibana, a soldier under Ahmose and later kings, records a destruction of Avaris and expulsion of the Hyksos. But no solid evidence supports such destruction.

A destruction of their administrative ability, that is Avaris was no longer a center for control. This is correlative with the expulsion of the Hyksos as the ruling entity.

Instead, archaeological material at Tell el Dab’a indicates a West Asian population continued to live there into the New Kingdom, raising questions about how many people were actually expelled.

This is interesting also, given that IF peoples from the Levant were migrating from there to Egypt up until the 12th century, there must have been a sizeable presence of people in the Levant in the 15th century from which such a continuous migration could even occur.

Regardless, later Egyptian texts (Speos Artemidos Inscription of Hatshepsut) continued to malign the Hyksos. They were also mocked in literary tales like the Tale of Apepi and Seqenenre. The goal of these tales seems to be the legitimization of less secure Egyptian reigns.

Later texts have minimal value.

Despite these conflicts between reality and the official record, the rule of the Hyksos and the immigrants from which they arose affected New Kingdom culture, language, military and even conceptions of what it meant to be an Egyptian king. This notable period was marked by the influx of new technologies into Egypt, from the horse and chariot to glass manufacturing. The Hyksos influence also set precedents for the international diplomacy that was followed in the Amarna Letters, and many believe the Hyksos spurred New Kingdom imperial expansion. Further research on the Hyksos and their important contributions will illuminate the broader history of the civilization of ancient Egypt.

Sure, the Hyksos would have had some positive contributions.

However, the correlation of their expulsion as a ruling dynasty and the reconquest by Egyptian Pharoahs, and a movement or exodus of Semitic peoples to the Levant makes sense, particularly in the context of a migration pattern back to Egypt from the Levant over the next 300 years. These would have been people who were emboldened by the temporary rule of a Semitic family (regardless if they were corrupt) to then seek an independence and autonomy away from the authority of the Pharoah, for both a social and spiritual purpose.

 

[Sargonski]

@GoodAttention @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Sargonski @Tamino @Mrpp @shunyadragon @Betho_br @paarsurrey

Your thoughts, please, about what Alice C. Linsley wrote in her blog.

The Exodus Narrative from a Different Angle

Alice C. Linsley Analysis of the kinship pattern of Moses’ family reveals that Moses was Horite Hebrew. The Horites and the Sethites const...

biblicalanthropology.blogspot.com

Thursday, February 9, 2023​

The Exodus Narrative from a Different Angle​

Alice C. Linsley
Analysis of the kinship pattern of Moses’ family reveals that Moses was Horite Hebrew. The Horites and the Sethites constituted the Hebrew ruler-priest caste. The Hebrew married only within their caste (endogamy) which explains why so many of the people in the Hebrew Scriptures are related by marriage or have common ancestry.

The oldest known site of Horite Hebrew worship is Nekhen on the Nile (4200 BC). This settlement predates the building of the Great Pyramids at Giza and the step pyramid of King Djoser (Third Dynasty). The oldest known tomb, with painted mural on its plaster walls, is located in Nekhen and dates to c. 3500–3200 BC.

The Horite mounds and the Sethite mounds were sacred Hebrew settlements along the Nile. Though separate groups or moieties, they shared common religious practices and beliefs, and they worshiped the same God and served the same king.

It is clear in the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts (2400-2000 BC) that the Horites and the Sethites maintained separate settlements. Utterance 308 addresses them as separate entities: "Hail to you, Horus in the Horite Mounds! Hail to you, Horus in the Sethite Mounds!"

PT Utterance 470 contrasts the Horite mounds with the mounds of Seth, designating the Horite Mounds "the High Mounds."

This diagram shows the relationship between Moses and Seir, the Horite Hebrew ruler mentioned in Genesis 36.



Moses was a sent-away son

As the son of Amram's cousin bride, Moses was not Amram's proper heir. Analysis of the social structure of the early Hebrew suggests that Moses was sent to live for a time with his maternal uncle Jethro in Midian (avuncular residence). That is the same pattern exhibited by Jacob who was sent away to live for a time with his maternal uncle Laban. In both cases, these sent-away sons struck out to establish territories of their own. That is one way to think of the "Exodus", except Moses didn't live to rule over a territory of his own.

Keep in mind also, that the biblical narrative of the Exodus is the story of only one Hebrew clan, the clan of Jacob who was called Israel. There were many other Hebrew clans and some of them were living in Canaan. The Hebrew had dispersed widely before the time of Abraham. They had already settled in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and other regions of the Ancient Near East.

Exodus 17:12 describes an event that connects Moses to an earlier Horite ruler. "But Moses' hands grew weary, so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it, while Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side. So his hands were steady until the going down of the sun".


King Hor (c. 1800 B.C.)

About 300 years before the time of Moses, there was a Horite king whose statue shows him with up-raised arms over his head. From predynastic times, this ka/kah (K3) symbol indicated divine authority, potency, and the sustaining power of the Spirit.

this takes a long time to sort out properly but the main problem is the claim of a hebrew priesthood ... or "horite hebrew" priesthood.

Hebrew is a language .. not a people ... nor a priesthood. Hebrew language did not exist ~1700 - 1800 BC .. and certainly not in Egypt at this time. Hebrew arising out of Canaanite a branch of canaanite some 400 centuries later.

So that some priesthood was connected with "Hebrew People" in Egypt down from 1800 BC a religious order going back to 3000 BC .doesn't make any sense.. the author talked about connecting by "Caste" but this was nonsense .. as the Jews adopting a custom from Egypt .. does not make it a Hebrew custom / tradition.

K Now .. that aside this makes no sense with the Bible Story .. The Religious tradition - Gods - Beliefs of Abraham have little to do with the God of Moses .. in particular not the Priestly Tradition of Abraham ~ 1800 BC .. carried on in Jerusalem until David Sacked the city .. 1000BC

This "Priestly Tradition" the Zadokite Priestly Tradition .. is not this Horite Tradition passed down to Moses .. and in fact is not the Priestly Tradition of Moses at all .. as that tradition comes from the Midianites .. "Those Hebrews" and their God YHWH .. aka "Yahu of the Shasu.. who later on spawns an Aaronic priestely Tradition.

The Zadokite Priesthood. A Canaanite (Hebrew) Priesthood From Melchi-Zedek 1800 BC down to King Adoni-Zedek 1000BC in Jerusalem is NOT .. the Aaronic Priesthood .. Different Priesthoods .. different Gods.

So .. I can't make much sense out of this hypothesis.