The avoidability of war

[Revoltingest]

Ukrainian soldiers, sooner or later, will be exhausted and exasperated, tired with fighting, will abandon the Kiev regime.
Russia will welcome them with open arms. So will Europe.

Or Russia will be defeated by exhausting its supply
of men willing to go along with this heinous war.
It will retreat with its tail between its legs, lick its
wounds, & hopefully realize that the cost of
violent conquest is too high to try again.

 

[Estro Felino]

Right now, looks like Russia is losing.

It's like I said that Luxembourg can defeat Germany in a war.
Sure.

 

[Revoltingest]

Decisions are taken by the innermost ring of the Pentagon, the Deep State.

American citizens are the first victims of those perpetrators who send their own citizens to war.

USA voters elect & re-elect the leaders
who pursue wrongful wars. No Deep
State conspiracy theory is needed to
explain what happens.

 

[Estro Felino]

USA voters elect & re-elect the leaders
who pursue wrongful wars. No Deep
State conspiracy theory is needed to
explain what happens.

They don't elect CIA members.
They don't elect the Pentagon apparatus.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I, for one, am not justifying any malicious acts.

I didn't say you were; I said wholesale demonization of an entire country could facilitate such justification.

That's a specious implication. It would be like
my claiming that you're a Russian apologist
because you refuse to judge the country.
Let's not go there.

I judge those responsible for the war and those who support it, not some random citizen in a dictatorship whose opinions I don't even know and who may not even be able to voice opposition to the war without vanishing under Putin's iron fist.

I justify assisting Ukraine's fighting off the evil
aggressor. The invasion is evil. It's supporters
are evil. And as I've told you before, I recognize
that some moral Russians exist, & oppose the war.

No disagreement here, although I suspect that some supporters of the war might also be misled by propaganda and could end up becoming opponents thereof, as was the case with some supporters of the wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Nevertheless, real-world effects matter the most, and such support for Putin still enables atrocities and war crimes.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Decisions are taken by the innermost ring of the Pentagon, the Deep State.

American citizens are the first victims of those perpetrators who send their own citizens to war.

Do you have the same opinion of Putin's regime for sending their own citizens to kill Ukrainians and annex Ukraine?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's like I said that Luxembourg can defeat Germany in a war.
Sure.

No, Russia is losing.

They're actually losing, badly.

Right now, they are resorting to conscripting felons in return for reduced sentences.

They're using tanks that were practically commissioned during world war 2.

Russia. Is. Losing.

It's delusional to pretend this war will inevitably go Russia's way.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, Russia is losing.

They're actually losing, badly.

Right now, they are resorting to conscripting felons in return for reduced sentences.

They're using tanks that were practically commissioned during world war 2.

Russia. Is. Losing.

It's delusional to pretend this war will inevitably go Russia's way.

Donbas has become Russian. Part of the Russian Federation and made up of two republics.

Since the battlefield is in Donbas, it's the Ukrainians who are the invaders. Who crossed the borders.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Donbas has become Russian. Part of the Russian Federation and made up of two oblasts.

Because the Donbas was invaded by Russian-backed separatists. And no, it is not part of Russia. It is part of Ukraine.

If America funded separatists in Italy (and sent in troops) who then seized control of a region of Italy and called it a part of the USA, how would you feel about that?

Not good, I'd guess?

Since the battlefields is in Donbas, it's the Ukrainians who are the invaders. Who crossed the borders.

Russia did. The Donbas is Ukrainian territory. Putin himself announced the invasion of "Eastern Ukraine". The forces did not enter "Russian territory". They entered and invaded Ukraine, and have been making moves westward since, to areas like Kharkiv, and direct attacks on the Ukrainian capital.

Please stop spreading Russian propaganda.

 

[Estro Felino]

If America funded separatists in Italy (and sent in troops) who then seized control of a region of Italy and called it a part of the USA, how would you feel about that?

Not good, I'd guess?

It was happening.
Americans wanted to turn Sicily into the 51st state. In 1943-1944. But desisted.
If they had done that, Italy wouldn't have reacted.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It was happening.
Americans wanted to turn Sicily into the 51st state. In 1943-1944. But desisted.
If they had done that, Italy wouldn't have reacted.

Weird how you make no judgement of that, which was entirely my question.

If US-backed separatists seized control of a region of Italy, and then America used it as a pretext to justify a full-scale invasion of Italy, how would you feel about that?

Do you think the USA did a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Donbas has become Russian. Part of the Russian Federation and made up of two republics.

Since the battlefield is in Donbas, it's the Ukrainians who are the invaders. Who crossed the borders.

Donbas isn't Russian unless one accepts Russia as the judge, jury, and executioner. Russia designated it as a separate territory and then invaded.

Clearly, the propaganda has worked as intended among a lot of apologists for imperialism.

 

[Kfox]

It does exist. European countries have never been at war with each other. Since 1945.

So because it hasn't happened in 80 years, that means it will never happen again?

 

[Debater Slayer]

It does exist. European countries have never been at war with each other. Since 1945.

This is factually incorrect. It's not even a matter of opinion; just downright false.

Often described as one of Europe's deadliest armed conflicts since World War II, the Yugoslav Wars were marked by many war crimes, including genocide, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, and mass wartime rape. The Bosnian genocide was the first European wartime event to be formally classified as genocidal in character since the military campaigns of Nazi Germany, and many of the key individuals who perpetrated it were subsequently charged with war crimes;[25] the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) was established by the UN in The Hague, Netherlands, to prosecute all individuals who had committed war crimes during the conflicts.[26]

According to the International Center for Transitional Justice, the Yugoslav Wars resulted in the deaths of 140,000 people,[6] while the Humanitarian Law Center estimates at least 130,000 casualties.[7] Over their decade-long duration, the conflicts resulted in major refugee and humanitarian crises.[27][28][29]

Yugoslav Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kfox]

It was happening.
Americans wanted to turn Sicily into the 51st state. In 1943-1944. But desisted.
If they had done that, Italy wouldn't have reacted.

In 1944-45 the USA only had 48 states. How did they propose Sicily was gonna make them go from 48 to 51?

 

[Stevicus]

You seek to equate all countries where any evil exists.
You ignore magnitude.

I ignore gross exaggerations.

 

[Revoltingest]

They don't elect CIA members.
They don't elect the Pentagon apparatus.

The CIA & Pentagon don't authorize war.
That's the Prez & Congress...critters who are elected.
Voters are responsible when they vote for candidates
with known records, propensities, & promises.

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't say you were; I said wholesale demonization of an entire country could facilitate such justification.

I read between the lines.

I judge those responsible for the war and those who support it, not some random citizen in a dictatorship whose opinions I don't even know and who may not even be able to voice opposition to the war without vanishing under Putin's iron fist.

I agree.

No disagreement here, although I suspect that some supporters of the war might also be misled by propaganda and could end up becoming opponents thereof, as was the case with some supporters of the wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Nevertheless, real-world effects matter the most, and such support for Putin still enables atrocities and war crimes.

Whether one independently has an evil orientation,
or it's due to consuming propaganda, the effect is
evil.
I'll add that people can reform, eg, learn that
propaganda isn't reality. I have that hope for
many in Russia.
BTW, that situation is why I oppose giving
government much control over media. The
wrong leader can control the message for ill.
Just imagine if Trump had such power. Ugh.

 

[Audie]

I have remarked that those who want Ukrainians to fight will not go fight themselves.
They send others to die.

Concocting " hypocrisy" to criticize is among
the lowest forms of political cant, a sorriest form
of rhetoric.

It's their war, they choose to fight. They do
get some volunteers.
It would be beyond shameful to ignore their
pleas for help, while, at btw zero effort or
expense, stand by claiming the moral high ground.

Is shameful not just " would be". Disgusting.

 

[Estro Felino]

The CIA & Pentagon don't authorize war.
That's the Prez & Congress...critters who are elected.
Voters are responsible when they vote for candidates
with known records, propensities, & promises.

I don't believe that.
Only God knows the Truth.

And thank God, Truth will triumph someday.