The avoidability of war

[Estro Felino]

For me, it's simple.

1) I do want Russia to withdraw
2) If Russia does not withdraw, I want Ukraine to defeat them and restore their own borders

I have remarked that those who want Ukrainians to fight will not go fight themselves.
They send others to die.

 

[Father Heathen]

No. Russians evidently are closer to us, culturally.
They are Europeans like us, after all.

But why would Obama having a different middle name change whether or not his actions were good or bad?

 

[Debater Slayer]

No. Russians evidently are closer to us, culturally.
They are Europeans like us, after all.

Racial supremacism, xenophobia, fascist and imperialist apologetics, and now Eurocentrism to top it all off.

You need to take a long, hard look at your posts and ask yourself what kind of moral framework they convey to others.

 

[Estro Felino]

But why would Obama having a different middle name change whether or not his actions were good or bad?

No, but his background explains a lot about his geopolitical choices.
He waged wars in the Middle East.
Exactly as Bush father and Bush son.
No difference at all.

The motivations may be different, but Bush and Obama are identical.

 

[Revoltingest]

Lads, please. We were all on the same page in this thread.

Let's put our Che Guevara T-shirts and our copies of Atlas Shrugged away for this one and agree on what's important: that Putin is poopy and the war is extra-poopy. Isn't that exactly what Karl Marx and Adam Smith both said?

Rand & Guevara are irrelevant.
You're the only one who brought her up.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have remarked that those who want Ukrainians to fight will not to go fight themselves.
They send others to die.

I am not "sending Ukrainians to die". That's the Russians doing that. They are doing the killing.

And in doing the killing, they are sending Russians to die as well.

Once again, you insist on this bizarre narrative that Ukraine has no agency, no will, no people willing to fight or think for themselves. Russia has a choice, a people, a will, and Ukraine is just an agency-less void that Russia is free to tread on if it wishes.

Nope. Ukraine rejects Russia. Ukraine is choosing to fight against Russia, who invaded them. I support Ukraine because I don't like it when country's START WARS and think countries that START WARS should be put in their place and not appeased.

 

[Revoltingest]

Evil happens in capitalist countries without exception, eg, the USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Spain. Your morally relativist arguments might say capitalism is the "lesser of two evils," but who's kidding whom? Evil is still evil.

You seek to equate all countries where any evil exists.
You ignore magnitude.
You ignore the 100% record of socialist countries being
authoritarian, oppressive, & economic disasters. And
you ignore that some capitalist countries have both
liberty & prosperity.

 

[Estro Felino]

I am not "sending Ukrainians to die".

I was speaking of Zelenski.

 

[Father Heathen]

No, but his background explains a lot about his geopolitical choices.
He waged wars in the Middle East.
Exactly as Bush father and Bush son.
No difference at all.

The motivations may be different, but Bush and Obama are identical.

Wasn't Russia involved in the Syrian conflict?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Rand & Guevara are irrelevant.
You're the only one who brought her up.

Aww, can't I be irreverent, sometimes? I was only hoping to lighten the mood to avoid yet another "My Blue Eyes White Capitalism attacks your life total - OH NO I have activated your Socialism/Communism Trap Card!" thread.

We're almost all on the same side for once. Can't we please be almost all on the same side for once? I like it when that happens.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I was speaking of Zelenski.

Zelenski is the leader of a country being attacked, and has volunteered to stay in that country - despite multiple offers to evacuate him - to lead the resistance forces.

He didn't make the choice to sacrifice Ukrainians. Russia did that. Because they started the war.

 

[Father Heathen]

I was speaking of Zelenski.

I don't see Putin on the front lines. Was your Mussolini?

 

[Revoltingest]

This brings up another question: what exactly makes most of a nation's individuals "evil"? Is a country evil if a large percentage of its population are misled into supporting wrongful wars, or does their support have to be rooted in malice and informed hostility?

It's a subjective call.

Per your definition, would a high percentage of the US population have been evil when Bush was elected for a second term after launching not one but two wars of aggression?

Some people make that judgement the USA is evil.
I don't. While USA has done evil things, I rank them
below Nazi Germany & Russia in the evil index.
If you feel otherwise, I've no argument.

 

[Revoltingest]

Aww, can't I be irreverent, sometimes? I was only hoping to lighten the mood to avoid yet another "My Blue Eyes White Capitalism attacks your life total - OH NO I have activated your Socialism/Communism Trap Card!" thread.

We're almost all on the same side for once. Can't we please be almost all on the same side for once? I like it when that happens.

The same side?
That will bore the masses.
They come here to see blood.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I only object to the painting of entire nations and peoples as "evil." It's pointless, ultra-nationalist pablum which can only lead to more loud nationalist talk. Yes, Putin is poopy and the war is extra-poopy. You'll get no argument from me on that point. But that doesn't mean the Russians as a whole are poopy.

Such blanket demonization of all Russians as if they were monolithic seems to me the Western equivalent of Islamist hardliners' "Great Satan" moniker for the US. It's always easier to justify malicious acts against the people of another country or relish their suffering when you sufficiently demonize them beforehand.

 

[Estro Felino]

He didn't make the choice to sacrifice Ukrainians. Russia did that. Because they started the war.

Ukrainian soldiers, sooner or later, will be exhausted and exasperated, tired with fighting, will abandon the Kiev regime.
Russia will welcome them with open arms. So will Europe.

 

[Revoltingest]

Such blanket demonization of all Russians as if they were monolithic seems to me the Western equivalent of Islamist hardliners' "Great Satan" moniker for the US. It's always easier to justify malicious acts against the people of another country or relish their suffering when you sufficiently demonize them beforehand.

I, for one, am not justifying any malicious acts.
That's a specious implication. It would be like
my claiming that you're a Russian apologist
because you refuse to judge the country.
Let's not go there.
I justify assisting Ukraine's fighting off the evil
aggressor. The invasion is evil. It's supporters
are evil. And as I've told you before, I recognize
that some moral Russians exist, & oppose the war.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Wasn't Russia involved in the Syrian conflict?

It was, and it committed numerous war crimes in addition to enabling Assad's massacres and war crimes.

Russian foreign policy is a geopolitical disease.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ukrainian soldiers, sooner or later, will be exhausted and exasperated, tired with fighting, will abandon the Kiev regime.

Right now, looks like Russia is losing.

Do you feel the same about them?

Russia will welcome them with open arms. So will Europe.

Russia started a war.

Weird how you never comment on that.

How would you feel in the USA invaded another country? Would you suggest that country's residents stop fighting because "The USA will welcome them with open arms"?

Crazy thought: maybe people don't want to be "welcomed with open arms" by a country that invaded their home, bombed them and killed their family and friends.

 

[Estro Felino]

Some people make that judgement the USA is evil.
I don't. While USA has done evil things, I rank them
below Nazi Germany & Russia. If you feel otherwise,
I've no argument.

Decisions are taken by the innermost ring of the Pentagon, the Deep State.

American citizens are the first victims of those perpetrators who send their own citizens to war.