The avoidability of war

[ImmortalFlame]

The difference between you and me is that I do want the war to end today, even if Russia has to withdraw.
You don't want the war today, unless Ukraine wins the war. Am I wrong?

Yes. I would prefer Russia withdraw and the fighting stop. I have said this many times.

But if the war HAS to continue (which is 100% Russia's decision), I'd rather Ukraine keep fighting.

So...you are disposed to a accept a decennial war, as long as Ukraine defeats Russia, am I wrong?
Correct me if I am wrong.

You are wrong, obviously.

I am anti-war, which is why - in this case - I am on Ukraine's side in this one.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, if I can show that there's enough evil capitalists to reach a tipping point, then is it fair to call all capitalists "evil"?

Evil can indeed happen in a capitalist country.
But socialism differs in that evil happens without exception,
eg, USSR, Khmer Rouge, N Korea, Cuba, PRC. Capitalism is
necessary to have the potential for liberty & prosperity.

 

[Father Heathen]

During the White House Sultanate (2009-16) the US made lots of wars in the ME.

But if his middle name was something Russian, you'd be cool with it.

 

[Estro Felino]

But if his middle name was something Russian, you'd be cool with it.

Absolutely.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes. I would prefer Russia withdraw and the fighting stop. I have said this many times.

But if the war HAS to continue (which is 100% Russia's decision), I'd rather Ukraine keep fighting.

So you do want Ukrainians to keep fighting, until they win.

 

[Revoltingest]

Absolutely.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I see. So, if I can show that there's enough evil capitalists to reach a tipping point, then is it fair to call all capitalists "evil"? Can we say the same thing about Republicans and Democrats?

Yes, you have spoken.

Evil can indeed happen in a capitalist country.
But socialism differs in that evil happens without exception,
eg, USSR, Khmer Rouge, N Korea, Cuba, PRC. Capitalism is
necessary to have the potential for liberty & prosperity.

Lads, please. We were all on the same page in this thread.

Let's put our Che Guevara T-shirts and our copies of Atlas Shrugged away for this one and agree on what's important: that Putin is poopy and the war is extra-poopy. Isn't that exactly what Karl Marx and Adam Smith both said?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So I was right. You do want Ukrainians to keep fighting, until they win.

Literally just said that wasn't the case.

I want Russia to leave. As long as they refuse to leave, I want Ukraine to continue to resist them.

I was different than you. I do want the Russians to stop the war, by withdrawing.

I literally just said that's what I wanted.

Did you read what I wrote?

 

[Stevicus]

Evil can indeed happen in a capitalist country.
But socialism differs in that evil happens without exception,
eg, USSR, Khmer Rouge, N Korea, Cuba, PRC. Capitalism is
necessary to have the potential for liberty & prosperity.

Evil happens in capitalist countries without exception, eg, the USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Spain. Your morally relativist arguments might say capitalism is the "lesser of two evils," but who's kidding whom? Evil is still evil.

 

[Father Heathen]

Absolutely.

So you openly admit to being a two-faced hypocrite with double standards?

 

[Estro Felino]

So you openly admit to being a two-faced hypocrite with double standards?

No. Russians evidently are closer to us, culturally.
They are Europeans like us, after all.

 

[Estro Felino]

Literally just said that wasn't the case.

I want Russia to leave. As long as they refuse to leave, I want Ukraine to continue to resist them.

Resist them?
I don't want Ukrainians to die for Soros' sake.
I would like them to stop obeying and flee to Poland, Germany, to Italy, where they will be welcomed as war refugees.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Resist them?
I don't want Ukrainians to die for Soros' sake.

Conspiratorial nonsense.

They are resisting for their own sake. They don't want to be controlled by Russia.

I would like them to stop obeying Soros' protegé (I forgot his name) and flee to Poland, Germany, to Italy, where they will be welcomed as war refugees.

And you would let those left behind be at the mercy of Russia, who have shown no desire to avoid collateral damage and human rights abuses. And then Russia controls Ukraine, and is brushing up against NATO borders, leading to an escalation in conflict.

If you are anti-war, you should be pro-Ukraine in this war, full stop.

This is not ambiguous.

 

[Stevicus]

Lads, please. We were all on the same page in this thread.

Let's put our Che Guevara T-shirts and our copies of Atlas Shrugged away for this one and agree on what's important: that Putin is poopy and the war is extra-poopy. Isn't that exactly what Karl Marx and Adam Smith both said?

I only object to the painting of entire nations and peoples as "evil." It's pointless, ultra-nationalist pablum which can only lead to more loud nationalist talk. Yes, Putin is poopy and the war is extra-poopy. You'll get no argument from me on that point. But that doesn't mean the Russians as a whole are poopy.

 

[Father Heathen]

Resist them?
I don't want Ukrainians to die for Soros' sake.
I would like them to stop obeying Soros' protegé (I forgot his name) and flee to Poland, Germany, to Italy, where they will be welcomed as war refugees.

This has nothing to do with Soros and everything to do with defending their land, freedom, identity, sovereignty, and lives.

 

[Estro Felino]

Conspiratorial nonsense.

They are resisting for their own sake. They don't want to be controlled by Russia.


And you would let those left behind be at the mercy of Russia, who have shown no desire to avoid collateral damage and human rights abuses. And then Russia controls Ukraine, and is brushing up against NATO borders, leading to an escalation in conflict.

If you are anti-war, you should be pro-Ukraine in this war, full stop.

This is not ambiguous.

I guess I have already made myself clear.
I will say it once again.

1) I do want Russia to withdraw
2) I do want Russia to stop the war
3) I do want Russia to find a diplomatic solution.

 

[Estro Felino]

I only object to the painting of entire nations and peoples as "evil." It's pointless, ultra-nationalist pablum which can only lead to more loud nationalist talk. Yes, Putin is poopy and the war is extra-poopy. You'll get no argument from me on that point. But that doesn't mean the Russians as a whole are poopy.

A round of applause ten minutes long.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Even if English is not my mothertongue, I guess I have already made myself clear.
I will say it once again.

1) I do want Russia to withdraw
2) I do want Russia to stop the war
3) I do want Russia to find a diplomatic solution.

Shall I say it in French? In German?

Right. So if Russia don't want to do those things - which they clearly don't, because they would have done so already (or, better yet, not started the war in the first place) - what should be done?

Also, very interesting that you talk exclusively about what you want RUSSIA to do, but do not make any suggestions as to what you think UKRAINE should do. Almost as if you think they have no agency or stakes in this conlict.

For me, it's simple.

1) I do want Russia to withdraw
2) If Russia does not withdraw, I want Ukraine to defeat them and restore their own borders

 

[Audie]

The difference between you and me is that I do want the war to end today, even if Russia has to withdraw.
You don't want the war to end today, unless Ukraine wins the war. Am I wrong?

So...you are disposed to a accept a decennial war, as long as Ukraine defeats Russia, am I wrong?
Correct me if I am wrong.

Let's try, "you'd like the rape to stop
even if he has to withdraw".

Me, I choose fight till I'm dead or
he quits.

 

[Debater Slayer]

When enuf individuals are evil, especially
leaders, then the country reaches a tipping
point where it's fair to call it "evil".
Hitler's Germany was evil. Italy was
evil for supporting it. Russia is now evil.

I have spoken.

This brings up another question: what exactly makes most of a nation's individuals "evil"? Is a country evil if a large percentage of its population are misled into supporting wrongful wars, or does their support have to be rooted in malice and informed hostility?

Per your definition, would a high percentage of the US population have been evil when Bush was elected for a second term after launching not one but two wars of aggression?