The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

[BruceDLimber]

You still seem confused. If you want to go back and review the conversation and address what I've said, I'll rejoin you. If not, OK.

I've repeated my point, to no avail.

So given that YOU still refust to address what I posted, YOU are the one terminating the conversation, not I!

 

[BruceDLimber]

ot all religious groups are considered as part of the "true" progression.

Many are, though we don't even consider some groups to be religions, such as Shintoism (a secular philosophy IOV).

There are indeed at least nine still-living religions we know of today, plus a number of now-extinct ones.

The progression is overall, and not always explicit at the time....

The adherents of the older, established religions, unless they are unhappy with their religion, don't have any reason to change religions.

Not really given that the latest religion, while retaining the same spiritual teachings as all the previous religions, does have the latest--and hence most applicable--social teachings.

So if the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today, why aren't more people recognizing this?

In fact, more are every day.

You have to remember that growth of a religion takes time. After all, how many Christians were there in 171 CE?

And the World Christian Encyclopedia--clearly not a Baha'i organization--states that the Baha'i Faith is the fastest-growing religion among those already established in over 100 nations.

Besides which, in terms of where adherents reside, the Britannica has since 1991 named the Baha'i Faith as the world's second most widespread religion (Christianity is first).

So there is indeed progress, however gradual.

Bruce

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't believe it is bias when one has the truth as Peter said to Jesus "why would we leave, you have the words of truth." I investigate other faiths for the sake of debate but Ihave the Truth and have no need for something less than the the Truth.

Well, others think they have the truth too. In our view truth is like the sun, it comes every day, not just once.

Oh I remembered to add one more reason:


5. Superstitions.

 

[CG Didymus]

"Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal." - Baha'u'llah

And how do we know for sure it is the creator's voice? "Hey Moses have one Hebrew draw his sword and kill another Hebrew." Hey Joshua, I have given this land to you, go kill all the men, women and children in Jericho." "Hey Abraham, go kill your son."

But besides that, Judaism followed lots of commands by their Creator and disobeyed a lot. But, they never called any of their prophets or patriarchs a "manifestation". You'd think a basic teaching of any religion would be the truth of what happens after you leave this life. But, Jews don't have any definitive answer. They have a Holy Book, but it was compiled over several hundreds of years. And who were the actual writers? It was only one, the main one, but only one of their Holy Books, why reject the rest of their Scripture? The books were written by Jews, for Jews. It progressed, but it was a progression of their story. Their story is still being written. How do the Jews fit into the Baha'i progression? Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses as manifestations? I don't see it.

 

[Desert Snake]

This is the problem with combining scriptures, perhaps, one can sort of make it mean whatever wants it to mean, at least with one scripture there is only so much wiggle room, but that aside, if a religion just grabs excerpts to suit it's goal, you have to wonder how legitimate the actual scriptural content is.
just musing///

 

[CG Didymus]

This is the problem with combining scriptures, perhaps, one can sort of make it mean whatever wants it to mean, at least with one scripture there is only so much wiggle room, but that aside, if a religion just grabs excerpts to suit it's goal, you have to wonder how legitimate the actual scriptural content is.
just musing///

I totally agree that in "essence" all religions are one. But with the word essence I'm throwing in a lot of wiggle room. To say that Adam and Moses are manifestations is no where close to what Judaism and Christianity teaches. To add Hinduism and Buddhism with many gods, no gods, reincarnation, and whatever else, then those religions compared to the Judeo/Christian religions are very different. To just compare mainstream, traditional and fundamental Protestant Christianity with any religion, doesn't even work. None of the others, except Judaism, was ever true. And even Judaism, for them, isn't "The Truth" anymore.

The only way to make it work is to take a very liberal and non-literal view of Christianity and the NT, then anything goes. But then, what was God thinking if he provided us with just enough "truth" to get us by until his next manifestation, then why all the variation? We should have basic truths that get built upon. But we have totally different theological concepts.

A major question I have, and I've asked it a few times, is that the Koran says that a look-a-like died on the cross for Jesus. If that is a truer truth than what the NT states about Jesus and the resurrection than what is left of Christianity? It has no risen Savior. He's not God in the flesh. He's just a dead very polished mirror that reflected God. Hey Disciple, thanks for adding to the conversation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And how do we know for sure it is the creator's voice?

This is an excellent question. Some others had asked me same question, that what proof is there that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God.
In my view, I feel certain that there is absolute proof for sincere and intelligent seekers. However that requires spending some time investigating. I'd say at least few months of good investigation...but hey, at the end it is worth it.
From my view, the proof of Baha'u'llah may be divided into 7 categories generally speaking:

1. In several passages of Biblical prophecies two dates are given for appearance of two promised ones. Both dates match with appearance of the Bab, and Baha'u'llah, as well as the place of the city of that these promised ones appear match with the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
2. In Islamic prophecies the date is calculated for the appearance of Mahdi from Quran and Hadithes, and it matches with appearance of the Bab.
3. In Islamic Hadithes, the duration associated with Mahdi and Baha'u'llah's revelation matches with the duration of the Two. The place of the appearance of them also prophesied by Hadithes and Quranic verses matches with the Two Manifestations. Both name of Baha'u'llah and the Bab can be found in Islamic Prophecies as well as Figurative Biblical verses.
4. Both Baha'u'llah and the Bab did not have teachers and did not have access to Books, to learn things that they knew, yet they knew about everything as it can be seen from their Writings. The Bab was only 25 yrs old, a Persian merchant with virtually no education other than being trained as merchant, yet He wrote thousands of Arabic verses in the style of Quran, even though He was Persian.
5. The life of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are full of Miraculous events and signs that was reported by many of their companions.
6. Both Baha'u'llah and the Bab lived a righteous life, as can be seen in the recorded history.
7. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah made many prophecies. Non of the prophecies ever failed, and many already are fulfilled.

Note that the Bab and Baha'u'llah lived just about 160 years ago and there is good amount of historical account about them, so, it can be verified that, for example at a given year/month where they were, and with who they were living and what they were doing. So, things can be verified. So, for example we can verify if they had teachers/ books, libraries or not. We can verify if they lived a righteous life or not. Their Writings are available with their own signatures, or stamps. So, it is not like Jesus or Muhammad who lived thousands of years ago with not much accurate historical accounts , and some had even denied their existence. Like I said, it takes at least some month to grasp of the above points if you choose to spend full-time days.

 

[BruceDLimber]

"Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal." - Baha'u'llah

And how do we know for sure it is the creator's voice?

In addition to many other tests and proofs, there's the famous Biblical test:

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

along with the specific list of fruits in Galatians!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[CG Didymus]

In addition to many other tests and proofs, there's the famous Biblical test:

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

along with the specific list of fruits in Galatians!

Peace,

Bruce

Since that was from the NT, let's apply it to Christianity. Which denomination or sect of Christianity has proven itself by producing "good" fruits?

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is accept the Torah and the Gospels of the Bible:

"...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses)."

(From a recently translated Tablet of Bahá'u'lláh)

"Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him."

(From a recently translated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)

So if the stories were written after Moses, then who wrote them? And how do we know they are the "exact" words God told Moses? If they are exact then there was a 6 day creation and a world wide flood. And, since we have the years and generations going back to Adam, is the Earth only a few thousand years old? I don't think Baha'is believe that, so what good are the "exact" words if they don't mean what they say?

 

[CG Didymus]

From what I 'personally' understand, the Baha'i Scriptures teach that human has been going through stages, similar to what evolution theory explains...so at one point we could have even looked like a fish or a worm, yet we were a distinct specie, as human's spirit is different from animals. God always guided us through His manifestations among us, and therefore even if billions years ago we were like a worm, a Manifestation like a worm had appeared among us to guide us...

So if we looked like a fish, how was our spirit different than a real fish's spirit? And, since you don't believe in the Hindu concept of reincarnation, what happens to the spirit of animals? And, is the spirit within a human eternal? If so, was the spirit that was to be place within a human body, already in existence before that human body was born into this world?

 

[arthra]

So if the stories were written after Moses, then who wrote them? And how do we know they are the "exact" words God told Moses? If they are exact then there was a 6 day creation and a world wide flood. And, since we have the years and generations going back to Adam, is the Earth only a few thousand years old? I don't think Baha'is believe that, so what good are the "exact" words if they don't mean what they say?

The Bible for us Baha'is is inspired but not necessarily accurate.. For sure we accept Moses as a Manifestation of God and you'll note the above citation which you quoted

"."Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him."

Includes the statement "the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses"... Bible scholars today have their opinions.

I think for Baha'is the issue is how is the direct revelation from God preserved and passed down.

Baha'is are not among those who accept inerrancy word for word of the Bible...

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet

(from a letter written to an individual on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, 11 February 1944).

 

[arthra]

So if we looked like a fish, how was our spirit different than a real fish's spirit? And, since you don't believe in the Hindu concept of reincarnation, what happens to the spirit of animals? And, is the spirit within a human eternal? If so, was the spirit that was to be place within a human body, already in existence before that human body was born into this world?

Baha'is do not believe animals have souls. The following is from a teaching delivered by Abdul-Baha:

The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved -- that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another -- the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished 209 and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 208

As you know we do not accept reincarnation..

Reincarnation as I pointed out to you earlier varies between Buddhism and Hinduism and emerged in Hinduism when the Upanishads developed and not before.. still reincarnation is an ancient belief and we believe it came about largely from observation of the cycle of nature.

Baha'is believe the soul appears at conception ...

"You have raised the point about the time of the appearance of human soul. You are quite right in your deduction in this regard, as our teachings clearly confirm that the soul of man comes into being at conception..."

From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, July 31, 1970

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 345)

All Souls Progress Spiritually in the Next World - Relatives of the Believers Will at Least Partially Attain Kingdom

"With reference to Bahá'u'lláh's Tablet in which He says that all the relatives of believers will reach the Kingdom in the other world; by this is meant only a partial attainment. They can, however, progress indefinitely, as spiritual progress in the order world is limitless, and is not confined to those who have attained unto the knowledge and recognition of the Cause while still in this world."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 30, 1940)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 208)









Manifestations of God we feel have had a pre-existence and are continuous prior to birth and after death. Manifestations were created by God.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Since that was from the NT, let's apply it to Christianity. Which denomination or sect of Christianity has proven itself by producing "good" fruits?

While I have my personal opinions, I'm not here to advocate or condemn any particular subgroup of Christianity. I'll simply say that as Baha'is, we accept Christianity in general as legitimate and God-sent, as we likewise do many other religions.

I also agree with Arthra's statements above.

And the standard holds REGARDLESS of which group is being examined!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[CG Didymus]

While I have my personal opinions, I'm not here to advocate or condemn any particular subgroup of Christianity. I'll simply say that as Baha'is, we accept Christianity in general as legitimate and God-sent, as we likewise do many other religions.

I also agree with Arthra's statements above.

And the standard holds REGARDLESS of which group is being examined!

Peace,

Bruce

Probably the best Baha'i teaching is the one about being better off following wrong scientific things than following religion in a superstitious, closed minded way. Unfortunately, if the "weird" stuff from the religions are taken away, most "believers" will have nothing. Like if Jesus is not God. If he didn't rise bodily from the dead. If we weren't born with a sin nature that required Jesus to die in our place. If there isn't a real hell. If there isn't an evil spirit creature that tempts us and wants to keep us from the "truth" of the NT. Then, what do they have? That is their "gospel". Without a literal flood and 6 day creation, what would they believe in? All their "truths" would be gone. That is why I don't see the progression. It's more like a continual distortion. I know you give all the religions the benefit of the doubt and still say they are all good and from God, but why did God allow the weird stuff to infect his truth?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Probably the best Baha'i teaching is the one about being better off following wrong scientific things than following religion in a superstitious, closed minded way. Unfortunately, if the "weird" stuff from the religions are taken away, most "believers" will have nothing. Like if Jesus is not God. If he didn't rise bodily from the dead. If we weren't born with a sin nature that required Jesus to die in our place. If there isn't a real hell. If there isn't an evil spirit creature that tempts us and wants to keep us from the "truth" of the NT. Then, what do they have? That is their "gospel". Without a literal flood and 6 day creation, what would they believe in? All their "truths" would be gone. That is why I don't see the progression. It's more like a continual distortion. I know you give all the religions the benefit of the doubt and still say they are all good and from God, but why did God allow the weird stuff to infect his truth?

Well, I think that perhaps the answer to your questions is again what I had posted before. It is the foundation and fruits of religion that matters...those things that you have mentioned in your post and saying without them they don't have anything, 'in Baha'i view' is not really part of fundamental teachings of religions, or their goals. Again I like to post what is the foundation of religions:

"it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen. "

With every revelation, the above list of fruits appears among people and within their heart. That is what matters in the sight of God, and therefore the religions had always fulfilled their goal. What was their goal? Their goal was to establish the above fruits among people, and they did....It is irreverent if Jesus rose physically or spiritually. It is irrelevant if there is literally hell and heaven. If we notice, the above goal is independent of such things after all.

 

[thiscloisteredconscience]

There is so much I like about the Baha'i Faith. I too find the progressive revelation to be a confusing (though admirable) concept. I can see how Judaism, Islam, and Christianity tie together, but when you throw Hinduism and Buddhism into the mix I lose that sense of continuity. I wish I could say I was better read in the Baha'i Faith than I am. I have to admit that I am a bit put off by the unusual word choices (verily!), but maybe that's just me.

 

[BruceDLimber]

CG, your list of objections amounts to a random collection of topics that are almost hopelessly mixed together.

Some of it accurately describes us, some of it has nothing to do with Baha'i belief, and some assertions don't even agree with Christian doctrine if we stipulate that the Jewish scriptures are accurate!

I think you need to do more serious study and reading about the Baha'i Faith and exactly what it does and doesn't teach! This should enable you to ask clearer questions and better understand what the Faith is really about.

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I have to admit that I am a bit put off by the unusual word choices (verily!), but maybe that's just me.

Meaning no offense, the terms are no more difficult than are commonly found in Christianity, the King James version of the Bible being a prime example!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[arthra]

There is so much I like about the Baha'i Faith. I too find the progressive revelation to be a confusing (though admirable) concept. I can see how Judaism, Islam, and Christianity tie together, but when you throw Hinduism and Buddhism into the mix I lose that sense of continuity. I wish I could say I was better read in the Baha'i Faith than I am. I have to admit that I am a bit put off by the unusual word choices (verily!), but maybe that's just me.

Thanks for your kind post....!

If you're unfamiliar with the "Vedic Experience" by Raimundo Panikkar I'd recommend reading a copy as it ties in the spiritual currents of Hinduism with western religious spirituality.... and I'd also recommend "Hinduism and the Baha'i Faith" by Moojan Momen.

http://bahai-library.com/momen_hinduism_bahai

I'd be interested in reading more about what you consider to be "ususual word choices" if you'd like to share that...