The bible and gays

[chessplayer]

JoStories , I`m glad you were helped by your faith , although you say you believe in God as well , is that not a bit of a mix like oil and water.?

The Biblical POV is that the basic problem of man is separation from God and only through Christ can this be rectified. Do you think that Jesus would have come , suffered and died in such an " unnatural " and illogical way, if it was possible to reach forgiveness and reconciliation in some easier way.

The Biblical emphasis is that sin had to be dealt with . Jesus dealt with it for all who will receive Him.

John 14 vs 6.

Jesus doesn`t condemn people , God might convict them of a need for a saviour , but not condemn.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Islam is based on the the 5 pillars , if you do these right then you may or may not go to heaven .

According to the belief, if those are done right, one always ends up in heaven. But that does not mean only heaven. There are more to life than the basics. One could go to hell to pay for crimes against humanity, then go to heaven once debt is payed. Yes, in Islam there are timed hell sentences. Otherwise, some Muslims could have their fun doing crimes.

But that's a different subject. The thread is about the Bible and gays.

 

[chessplayer]

Christianity says that if you believe you will show some sort of fruit in your life , love joy , peace, are the usual examples that are seen in newly converted people. So if you don`t show some of that at least , then the " conversion " seems to have got stuck in the birth canal.
Getting converted is basically submitting to Christ, which somehow sets us free , like being adopted by an amazing Dad.

But regarding the Chinese man , imo he should still pay society`s price for his actions but spiritually it`s different, if he truly trusts in Christ , he will be set free from the condemnation of judgement day , and that decision is God`s prerogative.

See U Tube testimony of Paul Swala, not quite the same but similar .

 

[JoStories]

JoStories , I`m glad you were helped by your faith , although you say you believe in God as well , is that not a bit of a mix like oil and water.?

The Biblical POV is that the basic problem of man is separation from God and only through Christ can this be rectified. Do you think that Jesus would have come , suffered and died in such an " unnatural " and illogical way, if it was possible to reach forgiveness and reconciliation in some easier way.

The Biblical emphasis is that sin had to be dealt with . Jesus dealt with it for all who will receive Him.

John 14 vs 6.

Jesus doesn`t condemn people , God might convict them of a need for a saviour , but not condemn.

Regarding your first question, no its not like mixing oil and water, or at least for me, its not. I believe in God because of experiences I have had that defy explanation and that I cannot help but attribute to God. However, that belief was condemned by your faith, or at least, some of the people of your faith as being heretical and against the tenets of your faith. I don't agree that we are separate from God at all. My belief is that God is a part of us all. One need only tap into that. (No disrespect or offense to the lovely atheists here). I see Christ as a scapegoat and I don't mean to disrespect you either Chess.

 

[chessplayer]

But that's a different subject. The thread is about the Bible and gays.

Well it`s kind of the point as the authenticity of the Bible is called into question , which therefore attempts to nullify it`s authenticity.

Anyway who am I to condemn someone else`s lifestyle choices , homosexuality along with many other things is a manifestation of an inner , ( separation from God ) issue , which all of society has. What we all need is a saviour to set us free.

Whether we should have changed the law to suit that is another point, as without absolutes where do you stop , pedophilia, bestiality, euthanasia ?

People hate the Bible because they are convicted by it , people also hate the police or the government or whatever so that`s not the issue.

 

[JoStories]

Well it`s kind of the point as the authenticity of the Bible is called into question , which therefore attempts to nullify it`s authenticity.

Anyway who am I to condemn someone else`s lifestyle choices , homosexuality along with many other things is a manifestation of an inner , ( separation from God ) issue , which all of society has. What we all need is a saviour to set us free.

Whether we should have changed the law to suit that is another point, as without absolutes where do you stop , pedophilia, bestiality, euthanasia ?

People hate the Bible because they are convicted by it , people also hate the police or the government or whatever so that`s not the issue.

I disagree with you on several points here. First of all, I don't hate the police. They are rather nice here in my town and we need them. I don't like our government as I believe it is as corrupt as it gets, particularly my own state's at the moment as our governor is an arse. I don't believe being gay as me separate from God at all. IMO, and in the opinion of researchers, being gay may be genetically based. That would intimate that it is just dandy with God, again IMO. I also take issue with your stand on what you call euthanasia. I wonder if you have ever had to watch a person suffer pain the likes of which you cannot comprehend forced to endure that pain because of a family that refuses to let them go peaceably into that good night. I have, so many times it broke my heart each and every single time. I cannot begin to tell you how many times. And lastly, if the Bible does 'convict' the person, what is the draw to follow it?? That simply makes no sense to me at all.

 

[leibowde84]

And more-

"Men have died on the gallows for reading it, and have been burned at the stake for owning it. Tortures too fiendish to describe have been visited upon delicate women and tender children for looking on its pages. Yet in spite of the strongest forces that Hell could unleash and in the face of the animosity of tyrants and despots, there are more Bibles in the earth today than there are copies of any other book ever written by the hand of man!" (Rimmer, op. cit. p. 15).

Can you provide a link for these quotes?

 

[chessplayer]

Can you provide a link for these quotes?

JoStories ,

TruthMagazine.com

But I would say these are quite well known facts.

 

[leibowde84]

JoStories ,

TruthMagazine.com

But I would say these are quite well known facts.

Truthmagazine.com is a Christian website, so I have to think these quotes are a bit biased. Do you have any unbiased sources?

 

[sojourner]

You should be sleeping. After I posted, I said to myself Sojourner will be awakened out of sleep from this post. LOL

HA!
You have awoken the Sleeping Giant... (cue ominous orchestral "Dawn-dawn-daaaaaawwwwwwwnnnn!!!)

 

[sojourner]

If regular people are equal with the Bible writers, then our words would not be questioned and every Human could declare without any negative words of others, that "we are our own Bible AKA The Word of God made Flesh."

I think the more Humans understand mystical and literal ancient writings and poetry and song lyrics of the last seventy years, the religious leaders will have to give up their "beliefs" that ancient writings contain more knowledge then modern teachings of the last one hundred fifty years.

Until that happens forums such as this and countless others along with religious exclusiveness will continue to flourish and divide the Human Race.

Yes, *some* religious leaders do idolize the bible, but not most. Most religious leaders know the nature of the texts, and they don't believe that the ancient writings contain more knowledge. "More knowledge" isn't the reason why the texts are revered. It's due more to Tradition -- the texts are, historically, our preserved source of inspired Tradition.

 

[sojourner]

Hundreds of books have survived even longer, such as the Vedas, the Upanishad, the Epic of Gilgamesh and so many more. Those books are incredibly special as well. The Christian community would love to see the Gospel of Thomas as never having been found but it was and it guides many.

I don't think that's true. Many, many religious leaders and scholars revere Thomas as "would have been included in the canon, had it been discovered."

 

[sojourner]

You are correct about it being fiction and an allegorical tale of morality or the lack thereof. You know my issues with sexual abuse love, so for me its kind of a hot button thing. I agree they removed his control but why would a man allow his children to get him that drunk? The whole story, at least for me, is a tale of sexual immorality and teaching that children are to be taught, not them teaching the father, or at least doing what they did. Yes, it exonerates the man in that light. But ask yourself...why would be have allowed them to do this and then gotten to the point where he was that drunk that he slept with them?

If he was that drunk, I'm amazed that he could get the equipment to work...

 

[sojourner]

My point which I seem to be struggling to get across , is that every day , God through His Word , redeems people , gets them free from alcohol and drug abuse, fear, suicide, lifestyles which they hate but were unable to give them up previously.

I have no knowledge of much of this happening outwith Christ`s Biblical intervention .

My point which I seem to be struggling to get across , is that every day , God through His Word , redeems people , gets them free from alcohol and drug abuse, fear, suicide, lifestyles which they hate but were unable to give them up previously.

I have no knowledge of much of this happening outwith Christ`s Biblical intervention .

It really has less to do with Jesus or the bible than it does with the 12 step program. It's not magic, it's counseling.

 

[sojourner]

You believe that Christ was divine but that is pure speculation.

But it is a crucial basis of the theology that makes Xy unique. I believe Xy is the only religion with such a paradigm as God becoming Incarnate to reconcile humanity to Divinity.

 

[sojourner]

JoStories , I`m glad you were helped by your faith , although you say you believe in God as well , is that not a bit of a mix like oil and water.?

The Biblical POV is that the basic problem of man is separation from God and only through Christ can this be rectified. Do you think that Jesus would have come , suffered and died in such an " unnatural " and illogical way, if it was possible to reach forgiveness and reconciliation in some easier way.

The Biblical emphasis is that sin had to be dealt with . Jesus dealt with it for all who will receive Him.

John 14 vs 6.

Jesus doesn`t condemn people , God might convict them of a need for a saviour , but not condemn.

Jesus "dealt with it" for the whole human family.

 

[sojourner]

homosexuality along with many other things is a manifestation of an inner , ( separation from God ) issue , which all of society has. What we all need is a saviour to set us free.

Based upon what credible evidence?

 

[leibowde84]

But it is a crucial basis of the theology that makes Xy unique. I believe Xy is the only religion with such a paradigm as God becoming Incarnate to reconcile humanity to Divinity.

Does this make it any more reliable, though?

 

[leibowde84]

Well it`s kind of the point as the authenticity of the Bible is called into question , which therefore attempts to nullify it`s authenticity.

Anyway who am I to condemn someone else`s lifestyle choices , homosexuality along with many other things is a manifestation of an inner , ( separation from God ) issue , which all of society has. What we all need is a saviour to set us free.

Whether we should have changed the law to suit that is another point, as without absolutes where do you stop , pedophilia, bestiality, euthanasia ?

People hate the Bible because they are convicted by it , people also hate the police or the government or whatever so that`s not the issue.

There are many reasons to distrust (or "hate") the Bible. Being convicted by it might be one, but the history of how it was created and the mystery of who actually wrote each book are also valid complaints and reason for lack of faith in its claims. I find it a bit unreasonable to simplify the distrust in this way. It is kind of disrespectful to those who genuinely try to look at it with an open mind, but get hung up on the obvious holes.

 

[sojourner]

Does this make it any more reliable, though?

More "reliable" than ... what?