The bible and gays

[Norman]

Homosexuals keep this world in harmony, if we were all so called strait the world would be controlled by aggressive beings, I cannot imagine a world war started by gays ?.

Norman: Hi psychoslice, your point is that homosexuals are not a threat to society at all? Where is your logic in this statement, how about all human beings can be a threat to society regardless of there race, color, creed, sexual orientation or gender.

 

[Smart_Guy]

If it condemns homosexual intercourse how can it not condemn some gay people by default?

Fair enough. I will not ask you to do something that will land you into trouble.

I guess I can talk about basic Islamic stuff without much emphasis. Please do ask if you'd like to. It is the country affairs and deeply controversial Islamic stuff related to it that I shouldn't come near

I'm confused, I thought being gay is defined by interest, not by getting into the homosexual intercourse, otherwise man getting raped by man, or doing it in a whim, would automatically make him gay, or on the other hand, being gay requires an initiation by doing the homosexual intercourse. I did hear about celibate gay people too and they are still considered gay. By the Islamic law, just having/being so does not condemn them. Kinda like heterosexuals not practicing adultery/fornication making them okay, which is an act that could apply to heterosexuals only but is not necessarily practiced.

Islam in my beliefs does not condemn supposedly illegal acts unless practically done willingly, while it is the other way around with good acts; i.e. good acts if honestly intended but something forcibly prevented it, it get accepted.

The Islamic scriptures actually call it "doing the act of the people of Sodom", it does not say anything for simply being gay.

By the way, I don't really have a problem with those actually doing the homosexual intercourse. All I'm doing here is sharing my views and trying to analyze things, and I don't impose them as the truth.

 

[psychoslice]

Norman: Hi psychoslice, your point is that homosexuals are not a threat to society at all? Where is your logic in this statement, how about all human beings can be a threat to society regardless of there race, color, creed, sexual orientation or gender.

Well of course, but I believe that most homosexuals are much more friendly than our so called heterosexuals, and also most religious morals, they are just all round friendly people, you should get to know some..

 

[JoStories]

You mean four Abrahamic faiths, Jo....

I'm only referring to Judaism, Christianity and Muslim. What fourth do you speak of DJ?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I'm only referring to Judaism, Christianity and Muslim. What fourth do you speak of DJ?

Now that you mentioned it... I'm interested too.

 

[JoStories]

Fornication and sex outwith marriage ( man and woman ) is the problem , either sex, male or lesbian . That is what I read in the Bible .

Whether or not you are saying you are born with this inclination is neither here nor there .

Biblically , it is the expression and acting out the "feelings" that condemns you .

Relevant Biblical quotes .

Since 1 Corinthians 7:2 clearly includes sex before marriage in the definition of sexual immorality, all of the Bible verses that condemn sexual immorality as being sinful also condemn sex before marriage as sinful. Sex before marriage is included in the biblical definition of sexual immorality. There are numerous Scriptures that declare sex before marriage to be a sin (Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Jude 7). The Bible promotes complete abstinence before marriage. Sex between a husband and his wife is the only form of sexual relations of which God approves (Hebrews 13:4).

If you choose not to follow the Bible , then you have that God given right to have your own choices , but it`s not God`s way for you , just as abuse or self harming or suicide are not God`s way . He want`s you to trust and follow Him with your free will , that`s true love.

A couple things here Chess. Yes, sex outside marriage is condemned by the Bible. I take issue with you saying that the love I felt for Norma was 'acting out'. It was as far from that as it can get Chess. We loved each other. I wonder if you know what that means. I loved Norma so much that I could not imagine breathing after she died. And before that, my love for her knew no bounds. And as for your last statement, that is nothing more than your opinion and for which you have no proof. How can you know that the belief I have in God is not God's way? In a word, you can't. Anymore than you can prove God is masculine. That is an affection added for people to have an alleged better understanding of God and really quite vain. God's way for me is Buddhist. IMO, God is bigger than your faith gives God credit for. To limit God is, IMO, the height of hubris.

 

[JoStories]

Not sure about the other two, but in Islam I know that only the sexual intercourse is not allowed. Where I live, and it is Saudi Arabia, men kiss, hug, hold hands and call each other "love" and "sweet heart" (I do those, I don't hold hands much). I'm sure some others from other cultures would call us gay for that.

Yes, I know about that. I have a good friend who spent several years in Qatar. She told me about the cultural mores of that area and it was fascinating. Not to mention the amazing music she brought home for me. She spends a few days here in my home when she gets up here to the northeast. And she brought me a great book on the culture of Qatar and the faith of Islam as well. Very cool stuff Smart Guy.

 

[JoStories]

That was not my point

My point was that the Islamic scriptures only criminalize homosexual intercourse. I mentioned those happening here because it is know for being strictly Islamic.

Sorry I cannot comment further about what the country does, or I could get in serious trouble even saying it here.

Seriously Smart Guy? Excuse me if this remark is offensive but that makes me so sad. I have some issues with the right of free speech in that I think there should be some limits, insofar as pornography and violence is concerned or harmful speech; IE: WBC, but to be in trouble for speaking truth makes no sense to me dear one.

 

[JoStories]

God! What isn't my involvement or instrument?

Church music, rock music, bluegrass, choral, symphonic band. I've built/repaired pipe organs, set up and run sound systems in live applications, worked in music retail and service, taught school music, and been a church choral conductor. I play some piano/organ, guitar, bass, trumpet, French horn, euphonium, Native American flute, Irish whistle, and have played clarinet in the past.

Native American flute? Are you NA? I play piano and flute and NA drums. And I adore the French Horn. One of my college professors played that for the symphony. He was amazing with it.

 

[JoStories]

I guess I can talk about basic Islamic stuff without much emphasis. Please do ask if you'd like to. It is the country affairs and deeply controversial Islamic stuff related to it that I shouldn't come near

I'm confused, I thought being gay is defined by interest, not by getting into the homosexual intercourse, otherwise man getting raped by man, or doing it in a whim, would automatically make him gay, or on the other hand, being gay requires an initiation by doing the homosexual intercourse. I did hear about celibate gay people too and they are still considered gay. By the Islamic law, just having/being so does not condemn them. Kinda like heterosexuals not practicing adultery/fornication making them okay, which is an act that could apply to heterosexuals only but is not necessarily practiced.

Islam in my beliefs does not condemn supposedly illegal acts unless practically done willingly, while it is the other way around with good acts; i.e. good acts if honestly intended but something forcibly prevented it, it get accepted.

The Islamic scriptures actually call it "doing the act of the people of Sodom", it does not say anything for simply being gay.

By the way, I don't really have a problem with those actually doing the homosexual intercourse. All I'm doing here is sharing my views and trying to analyze things, and I don't impose them as the truth.

IMO, you are correct that its about interest and love. But, IMO, real love does not see gender. It sees the soul. And finds the love there that transcends gender. The physical aspects, which are great btw, are so small a part of that love as it be really insignificant to that love. But I am now celibate in honor of my late partner but still call myself gay.

 

[chessplayer]

Can you help Mr out with a link. I can't find it. I know that there was a very old/outdated report like this. Is it that one?

I copied this a few years ago , this is the complete copy of what I recorded then .

Certainly the recent method of recording this stuff on CDC might not be so simple , but I don`t imagine the facts are any different.


Link from CDC , Centre for disease control and prevention

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been increasing among gay and bisexual men. Recent increases in syphilis cases have been documented across the country. In 2008, men who have sex with men (MSM) accounted for 63% of primary and secondary syphilis cases in the United States. MSM often are diagnosed with other bacterial STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections.


Gay and bisexual men can be infected with HPV (Human Papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States. Some types of HPV cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancer. Men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to develop anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who are uninfected to develop anal cancer. See Primary and Secondary Syphilis—Reported Cases, 2008, by Sexual Orientation.




In the US 63 % of cases of primary and secondary syphilis are among MSM homosexuals. This is in a percentage population wise of less than 1%


They are often diagnosed with other STDs including Chlamydia and gonorrhoea.The antibiotics for which are quickly becoming more ineffective, as time goes on.


This same group ( MSM ) are often infected with HPV ( human Papillomavirus ) the most common STD in the US. Some types of HPV cause genital and anal warts, and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancer.


Men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely develop anal cancer than heterosexual men.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yes, I know about that. I have a good friend who spent several years in Qatar. She told me about the cultural mores of that area and it was fascinating. Not to mention the amazing music she brought home for me. She spends a few days here in my home when she gets up here to the northeast. And she brought me a great book on the culture of Qatar and the faith of Islam as well. Very cool stuff Smart Guy.

Qatari people are kinda similar to us. I've never been to Qatar myself, nor I have a passport to travel yet to any other country, let alone Qatar

Seriously Smart Guy? Excuse me if this remark is offensive but that makes me so sad. I have some issues with the right of free speech in that I think there should be some limits, insofar as pornography and violence is concerned or harmful speech; IE: WBC, but to be in trouble for speaking truth makes no sense to me dear one.

I'd never feel offended by you, JS, no worries.

Tho it is some serious restriction, it does have good points, IMHO. Riots, vandalism and clever abuse (Youtube is full of those) done in the name of freedom of speech are so numbered and unfamiliar here because of it.

It is easy to not get myself in trouble as the laws are clear here and second chances are still there for some acts depending on the category and severity. I guess not all people and cultures around the world can be the same. Also I think different people have different preferences in the cultures they want to live in. Some want absolute freedom of speech, other want it moderated like your kind self, and some other probably don't mind it so restricted just for the sake of possible outcomes they see worth it.

IMO, you are correct that its about interest and love. But, IMO, real love does not see gender. It sees the soul. And finds the love there that transcends gender. The physical aspects, which are great btw, are so small a part of that love as it be really insignificant to that love. But I am now celibate in honor of my late partner but still call myself gay.

Yes, love is a beautiful emotion. I guess what beliefs and religions have in mind is what the physical aspects could do to the community if not monitored and moderated. Maybe we can't see what those possible harms could be due to our nature being human beings with our known limitations and desires, so I think it is only fair to at least sometimes give them the benefit of the doubt and be neutral about judging them in general. That's one big reason why I respect other beliefs and religions than Islam.

And JS, sorry to know about your late partner. May they find peace. You really are a nice person.

Note:
If you are using Firefox browser, you can hold the Crtl key and use the mouse wheel to zoom the pages in and out to control visibility. Cheers

 

[SomeRandom]

I guess I can talk about basic Islamic stuff without much emphasis. Please do ask if you'd like to. It is the country affairs and deeply controversial Islamic stuff related to it that I shouldn't come near

I'm confused, I thought being gay is defined by interest, not by getting into the homosexual intercourse, otherwise man getting raped by man, or doing it in a whim, would automatically make him gay, or on the other hand, being gay requires an initiation by doing the homosexual intercourse. I did hear about celibate gay people too and they are still considered gay. By the Islamic law, just having/being so does not condemn them. Kinda like heterosexuals not practicing adultery/fornication making them okay, which is an act that could apply to heterosexuals only but is not necessarily practiced.

Islam in my beliefs does not condemn supposedly illegal acts unless practically done willingly, while it is the other way around with good acts; i.e. good acts if honestly intended but something forcibly prevented it, it get accepted.

The Islamic scriptures actually call it "doing the act of the people of Sodom", it does not say anything for simply being gay.

By the way, I don't really have a problem with those actually doing the homosexual intercourse. All I'm doing here is sharing my views and trying to analyze things, and I don't impose them as the truth.

This is true. But it would be like condemning heterosexual sex and then saying you don't condemn heterosexuals. It's not a defining characteristic, but it's implicit. Not always, but it's implicit. Heterosexuals automatically get an out. They can marry and do the dirty however many times they please without being sinful. Now to be sure there are many progressives in many religions who happily "extend this privilege" so to speak to their gay brethren. But it takes some........interesting interpretations. And you yourself seem to be fair minded and rather forward thinking. No doubt a testament to your faith and your humanity. Far be it for me to say anything about the beliefs of another, but does Islam extend this "opportunity" also? Clearly in the Scriptures I mean?

 

[Smart_Guy]

This is true. But it would be like condemning heterosexual sex and then saying you don't condemn heterosexuals. It's not a defining characteristic, but it's implicit. Not always, but it's implicit. Heterosexuals automatically get an out. They can marry and do the dirty however many times they please without being sinful. Now to be sure there are many progressives in many religions who happily "extend this privilege" so to speak to their gay brethren. But it takes some........interesting interpretations. Far be it for me to say anything about the beliefs of another, but does Islam extend this "opportunity" also? Clearly in the Scriptures I mean?

This is a little confusing. Heterosexual sex is an act while heterosexuals are individuals. Heterosexuals are not condemned for being heterosexuals, but they could get condemned if they commit specific forbidden heterosexual acts, if they actually do it. Yes, "could be" not "will be", as there are strict rules for it that are difficult to punish for.

As for the question, no, but at least it does not say anything further than the boundary of the intercourse. The extent of it after all is "the act of the people of Sodom". There is not even a mention of "being gay".

But isn't what really matters that I wish homosexuals no harm and everything else I said in this thread is just a collection of thoughts that I would never use against them? I believe how one socializes people with kindness is what really matters in life, not how we approve/disapprove of some of what they do. Everyone agrees and disagrees in this life. It is normal for people to see a thing wrong and other see the same thing right. I don't think it matters as long as it is just a thought. I do have gay friends after all.

And you yourself seem to be fair minded and rather forward thinking. No doubt a testament to your faith and your humanity.

In life in general, Isn't this what matters in the end?

 

[leibowde84]

I copied this a few years ago , this is the complete copy of what I recorded then .

Certainly the recent method of recording this stuff on CDC might not be so simple , but I don`t imagine the facts are any different.


Link from CDC , Centre for disease control and prevention

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been increasing among gay and bisexual men. Recent increases in syphilis cases have been documented across the country. In 2008, men who have sex with men (MSM) accounted for 63% of primary and secondary syphilis cases in the United States. MSM often are diagnosed with other bacterial STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections.


Gay and bisexual men can be infected with HPV (Human Papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States. Some types of HPV cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancer. Men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to develop anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who are uninfected to develop anal cancer. See Primary and Secondary Syphilis—Reported Cases, 2008, by Sexual Orientation.




In the US 63 % of cases of primary and secondary syphilis are among MSM homosexuals. This is in a percentage population wise of less than 1%


They are often diagnosed with other STDs including Chlamydia and gonorrhoea.The antibiotics for which are quickly becoming more ineffective, as time goes on.


This same group ( MSM ) are often infected with HPV ( human Papillomavirus ) the most common STD in the US. Some types of HPV cause genital and anal warts, and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancer.


Men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely develop anal cancer than heterosexual men.

Yeah, they took this back and suggested inclusion for blood donations, so this is out of date and incorrect.

 

[chessplayer]

More happy info from the CDC USA

How common is syphilis?
In the United States, health officials reported 56,471 cases of syphilis in 2013, including 17,535 cases of primary and secondary (P&S) syphilis. In 2013, half of all P&S syphilis cases were reported from 29 counties and 2 cities. The incidence of P&S syphilis was highest in women 20 to 24 years of age and in men 20 to 29 years of age. Reported cases of congenital syphilis in newborns increased from 2012 to 2013, with 322 new cases reported in 2012 compared to 350 cases in 2013.

Between 2012 and 2013, the number of reported P&S syphilis cases increased 10.9 percent. In 2013, 75% of the reported P&S syphilis cases were among men who have sex with men (MSM).

 

[sojourner]

Native American flute? Are you NA? I play piano and flute and NA drums. And I adore the French Horn. One of my college professors played that for the symphony. He was amazing with it.

No -- just as European as they come. I just like the religion, the culture and the music.

 

[Sundance]

I'm only referring to Judaism, Christianity and Muslim. What fourth do you speak of DJ?

I was referring to the Baha'i Faith, dear Jo... people tend to forget this one. Ah well.

 

[SomeRandom]

This is a little confusing. Heterosexual sex is an act while heterosexuals are individuals. Heterosexuals are not condemned for being heterosexuals, but they could get condemned if they commit specific forbidden heterosexual acts, if they actually do it. Yes, "could be" not "will be", as there are strict rules for it that are difficult to punish for.

As for the question, no, but at least it does not say anything further than the boundary of the intercourse. The extent of it after all is "the act of the people of Sodom". There is not even a mention of "being gay".

Kind of, yes, no. A bit of both.Sex is an act, yes. But in a committed relationship either gay or straight, it is a bonding experience. Intimacy, love and romance. To ban homosexual sex flat out is simply not the same restrictions that is placed on heterosexuals. They don't necessarily have to live a life of celibacy to live without of sexual sin. Gay people, by default have to. Of course there's a few interpretations that can, shall we say, remove that obstacle for gay people. But it's not nearly as easy as simply saying, oh we're married, like heterosexuals can do.

I'm not saying that the Abrahamic religions are inherently anti gay. But a vague condemnation is enough to easily interpret a position against homosexuals. Just as many people can interpret scripture to be very accepting and loving of gay people.
There's smoke, is what I'm saying.

But isn't what really matters that I wish homosexuals no harm and everything else I said in this thread is just a collection of thoughts that I would never use against them? I believe how one socializes people with kindness is what really matters in life, not how we approve/disapprove of some of what they do. Everyone agrees and disagrees in this life. It is normal for people to see a thing wrong and other see the same thing right. I don't think it matters as long as it is just a thought. I do have gay friends after all.

Yes and no. Disagreeing with something need not be harmful to another person. Sure. But like everything there is two sides to that.. For example some (not all) Christians may tell gay people how they are inherently sinful. That they need to change to accept God's love. This isn't necessarily being douchy, it's just that some (not all) Christians view this act as an act of kindness. A warning to save another's soul. However, on the other side of the fence that same gay person might have heard exactly that message their entire lives. It might cause them very low self esteem, cause them to dislike or even hate themselves or even depression. Being kind to one and other is good, we ought to strive for that. But we also need to be mindful of differing points of view on what it means to be kind. What is seen as helpful by one person can be seen as damaging by another.

In life in general, Isn't this what matters in the end?

Sure.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Kind of, yes, no. A bit of both.Sex is an act, yes. But in a committed relationship either gay or straight, it is a bonding experience. Intimacy, love and romance. To ban homosexual sex flat out is simply not the same restrictions that is placed on heterosexuals. They don't necessarily have to live a life of celibacy to live without of sexual sin. Gay people, by default have to. Of course there's a few interpretations that can, shall we say, remove that obstacle for gay people. But it's not nearly as easy as simply saying, oh we're married, like heterosexuals can do.

I'm not saying that the Abrahamic religions are inherently anti gay. But a vague condemnation is enough to easily interpret a position against homosexuals. Just as many people can interpret scripture to be very accepting and loving of gay people.
There's smoke, is what I'm saying.

Yes and no. Disagreeing with something need not be harmful to another person. Sure. But like everything there is two sides to that.. For example some (not all) Christians may tell gay people how they are inherently sinful. That they need to change to accept God's love. This isn't necessarily being douchy, it's just that some (not all) Christians view this act as an act of kindness. A warning to save another's soul. However, on the other side of the fence that same gay person might have heard exactly that message their entire lives. It might cause them very low self esteem, cause them to dislike or even hate themselves or even depression. Being kind to one and other is good, we ought to strive for that. But we also need to be mindful of differing points of view on what it means to be kind. What is seen as helpful by one person can be seen as damaging by another.

Sure.

Thank you for the follow up, SR

Yes, even disagreeing should be respectful. Telling others they are sinful is wrong in my book, and I'd just say I don't agree with this and that. If I felt it would hurt their feeling, I'd just keep my thought to myself if not asked for an honest view, something freedom of speech teaches to ignore, but that's another subject. I might not have explained it well, but it is more complicated than just being respectful in delivering the thought. It involves further behaviors in considering the feeling of the others. Sorry if I sounded rude before. If you know me in real life, you would know what I mean