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The Bible and Homosexuality

H

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
so...
It's OK to sell your daughter, as long as it's a certain kind of sale?
Child Protective Services might just disagree with you.
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I did answer that somewhere in this thread.

But if the point is to watch allright struggle to answer, then never mind. Your point would be different than one I could answer for.
 
H

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
waitasec said:
i fully agree with you. of course you have the right to your beliefs

i guess what we are all trying to do here is to come to an agreement.
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I think we reached it.

curious though...why do you suppose same sex couples have their rights violated? could it be that their mis treatment stems from beliefs that a) it's unnatural and unhealthy or b) it is a sin? when it comes to the moment when you are in the voting booth and you are in a position to affect someones life, because you believe it is a sin, would you vote to violate their right? that is where the issue lies, i believe.
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That is a fair conclusion.

But you see... In the way beliefs are acted on by the adherents of various belief systems are different will explain why people are treated as they are.

I can't answer for Christians, who have seriously influenced the voting trends since the country became independent from England.

I've explained and expressed what I believe, and I have explained how - in the name of freedom of religion - I support the rights of everyone, even if it means they do things I don't agree are right. That is where the concept of "freedom of religion" comes in.

For the same token that I would fight for the right to keep circumcision legal (it's not, in San Francisco), or keeping kosher legal (I heard that after the Rubashkin debacle, that people were fighting against Jews and the concept of kosher slaughter), or the right to not be forced to work on Saturday, I will fight for the right for people who don't believe as I do who wish the right to the government benefits that come with marriage.

If the government is giving its blessing to people who are married, which is primarily a social if not religious choice, the government has no right to decide which religions, beliefs, or social constructs are "more equal than others".
 
Trey of Diamonds

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Harmonious said:
Yup. The acts of homosexual liaisons ARE wrong. But at the same time, I'm acknowledging that the only reason I believe this is so is my religious beliefs.

I believe that people who believe in Jesus as anything special and important are wrong, too. As a matter of fact, they are just as wrong as homosexual acts, one focusing on the sin of idolatry, one focusing on the sin of immoral sex.

But there's not a heck of a lot I could or should do, as we have freedom of religion, which is freedom FROM religion. And if people don't wish to believe as I do... So?

No. People are good people until they prove to be bad. I believe this across the board.

They are okay. Absolutely. But what they desire is NOT okay, if they do something about it.

I understood the orator in the OP. I understand why homosexuals feel left out. But then again, I'm not the one who came up with the laws in Leviticus, or any of the Torah. And I don't think the law should change because people don't like what they say.
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While I disagree with what you believe I have no problem with the fact that you believe it. What you have said in the post above is understandable and reasonable. Most people, not all but most, are fine with people who see the issue as you do. What we are fighting against are those who believe it is ok to create and/or maintain legislation that forces those beliefs on other people. I would give anything to see all the Christians fighting against homosexuality see the issues like you do. It would solve so many problems.
 
H

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
Trey of Diamonds said:
While I disagree with what you believe I have no problem with the fact that you believe it. What you have said in the post above is understandable and reasonable. Most people, not all but most, are fine with people who see the issue as you do. What we are fighting against are those who believe it is ok to create and/or maintain legislation that forces those beliefs on other people. I would give anything to see all the Christians fighting against homosexuality see the issues like you do. It would solve so many problems.
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Thank you for saying so.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is a difference between saying that someone is wrong and saying that someone isn't a full human being.

You will never hear ME say, or even imply, that people who are wrong are lesser human beings.

You will also never hear ME say, or even imply, that people who have desires that are sinful are lesser human beings. I don't believe they are.
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Thanks for that post. You've obviously given this a lot of thought. Let me highlight one passage:
There is a difference between saying that someone is wrong and saying that someone isn't a full human being.

You will never hear ME say, or even imply, that people who are wrong are lesser human beings.

You will also never hear ME say, or even imply, that people who have desires that are sinful are lesser human beings. I don't believe they are.
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Obviously you believe that God created us as we are. how do you reconcile a loving God with one who will create some to be homosexual, and then deny them the leeway to meet their very basic desire for human intimacy? In what way can one be a whole human being through forced celibacy, and in what way can they be judged to be full human beings if that outlet of personal expression is judged to be "sinful?"
 
H

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
Obviously you believe that God created us as we are. how do you reconcile a loving God with one who will create some to be homosexual, and then deny them the leeway to meet their very basic desire for human intimacy? In what way can one be a whole human being through forced celibacy, and in what way can they be judged to be full human beings if that outlet of personal expression is judged to be "sinful?"
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In much the same way as God created all of us with our desires - some of which are sinful, some of which are harmful, some of which are harmless - it is a challenge.

I have heard stories of homosexuals who married people of the opposite sex and had children with them, even though this would not have been their general choice, because it was important to them to serve God as He commanded.

The fact that they still lusted after people of their own sex wasn't counted against them. (In much the same way I've said about men admiring women not their wives, or women admiring men not their husbands, I would say that these amazing homosexuals were married, not dead.) As a matter of fact, they brought up their homosexual orientation as an issue to their spouses. The spouses - in the stories I've heard - were understanding and supportive, and seriously proud that their spouse fought their natural inclinations to serve God.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
Thanks for that post. You've obviously given this a lot of thought. Let me highlight one passage:

Obviously you believe that God created us as we are. how do you reconcile a loving God with one who will create some to be homosexual, and then deny them the leeway to meet their very basic desire for human intimacy? In what way can one be a whole human being through forced celibacy, and in what way can they be judged to be full human beings if that outlet of personal expression is judged to be "sinful?"
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is it so obvious?
:shrug:
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
Harmonious said:
In much the same way as God created all of us with our desires - some of which are sinful, some of which are harmful, some of which are harmless - it is a challenge.

I have heard stories of homosexuals who married people of the opposite sex and had children with them, even though this would not have been their general choice, because it was important to them to serve God as He commanded.

The fact that they still lusted after people of their own sex wasn't counted against them. (In much the same way I've said about men admiring women not their wives, or women admiring men not their husbands, I would say that these amazing homosexuals were married, not dead.) As a matter of fact, they brought up their homosexual orientation as an issue to their spouses. The spouses - in the stories I've heard - were understanding and supportive, and seriously proud that their spouse fought their natural inclinations to serve God.
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it's a painful experience.
 
A

allright

Active Member
Harmonious said:
I would say that Jesus was a liar.

:faint:

MOSES didn't give the Jews ANY law. God did. Moses merely taught what God dictated.

Agreed

Further, if you have ever heard, witnessed, or experienced a toxic marriage, disallowing divorce from such a thing is TRUE cruelty. If anyone is creating hardness of heart through suggestion, I would say it was Jesus. Not God, and certainly not Moses.

If the only complaints the Jews had in 40 years were those listed, they were far more complacent with their lot than people are today.

Otherwise, the Jews were doing exactly what God wanted them to be doing.

Except that God commanded the Jews to establish a king upon entering the land. It's in Deuteronomy.

If all the above is true please explain the following

1 Samuel 7-8 and the Lord said to Samuel "Heed the voice of the people in all they say to you: for they have not rejected you but they have rejected Me that I shoulld not reign over them
8 According to all the works they have done since the day I brought them out of Egypt, even to this day -forsaking me to serve other gods-so they are doing to you also

19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel and said "No, we will have a king"

1 samuel 12:19 And all the people said "Pray for your servants that we may not die,for we have added to all our sins the evil of asking for a king"

No. The main purpose of the dietary laws is to show obedience to God.

Unless you truly believe that God is so cruel as to set rules of cleanliness so that only the Jews can live healthily and condemn the rest of the world to sickness and death.

If health was the reason why didnt he warn Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob etc

The disease God is interested in cleansing people of is sin
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waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
Harmonious said:
I'm sure it is. That is why I think they are so very strong, and so very admirable for following their faith, regardless of their desires.
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what is a passion of yours...what gives you a sense of who you are or expresses your individuality to yourself, something you can call your own?
are you a composer, a writer, a painter, a mother...

now take that away for the sake of your faith...
that isn't living ones life, thats living someones else's life

:sad:
 
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