The Challenge in the Qur'an

[GURSIKH]

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. Surah 33:40
the word for Seal of the prophets is Khatam-e-Nabiyen, Khatam in Arabic, urdu means finish/last

its pathetic if Quran say so , its totally unexpected , I lost respect for Quran , and these ( above surrah from Quran ) can;t be words of Allah /GOD ,i am sure .thanx

 

[riverfox]

I never said it was,i used it as an example,who and how was it judged,where did they get the criteria (if indeed there is any) but as the AOL fiasco shows Muslims do not take even someone calling their Teddybear Muhammed very well.
I cannot judge the True Furqan because i and it seems the rest of humanity do not know the criteria which really isn't a problem for me as i don't believe it is a challenge outside the age of Muhammed.

What is the criteria to judge ? whether a book is like the Qur'an or not.
Unreasonable Question..The Holy Qur'an is.

 

[kai]

What is the criteria to judge ? whether a book is like the Qur'an or not.
Unreasonable Question..The Holy Qur'an is.

you cant have a challenge with no judge, no criteria to base the judgement on.

 

[riverfox]

its pathetic if Quran say so , its totally unexpected , I lost respect for Quran , and these ( above surrah from Quran ) can;t be words of Allah /GOD ,i am sure .thanx

Could you please explain why ?

 

[England my lionheart]

What is the criteria to judge ? whether a book is like the Qur'an or not.
Unreasonable Question..The Holy Qur'an is.

Ah but is it like the Quran in rhyme,prose, content number 19,who will judge and what is being judged.

 

[riverfox]

Ah but is it like the Quran in rhyme,prose, content number 19,who will judge and what is being judged.

who will judge and what is being judged

Allah (swt) says 52:30-31 Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!.
Using the Qur'an we all will judge,is it hard to understand?


It is not hard to find that the so called true furqan is not.I said :This book even goes as far as attacking Allah (swt),this incorporating the Christian belief of the three spirits. And this so called true Furqan or Qur'an opposes many Islamic beliefs. in one of its ayats it describes having more than one wife as fornification, divorce being non-permissable.It states that Jihad is haram.
What is the miracle behind it which makes it like the Qur'an? This ?

Ah but is it like the Quran in rhyme,prose, content number 19

 

[YmirGF]

What is the criteria to judge ? whether a book is like the Qur'an or not.
Unreasonable Question..The Holy Qur'an is.

But that is precisely my point. How can you call something a challenge if nothing can ever be seriously judged to compare TO the Qur'an. In simpler terms, Muslims are not actually serious about the challenge because they would never accept anything to be worthy. Therefore any challenge is a total waste of time before it even gets started. Thus, the challenge itself is meaningless.

 

[riverfox]

But that is precisely my point. How can you call something a challenge if nothing can ever be seriously judged to compare TO the Qur'an. In simpler terms, Muslims are not actually serious about the challenge because they would never accept anything to be worthy. Therefore any challenge is a total waste of time before it even gets started. Thus, the challenge itself is meaningless.

Nothing (of people) can be compared to the Qur'an and humans can never produce a sura like it, we Muslims believe this. You don't right ? then prove it 52:30-31 Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!.

 

[Fatihah]

you cant have a challenge with no judge, no criteria to base the judgement on.

Response: No judge is necessary. That's right. No judge is necessary. A judge is required when the evidence or proof is not clear. However, the proof of answering the challenge is clear. For example, if we were to have a public race as to who is the fastest between us and you beat me by 2 minutes, are you telling me we need a judge to determine the winner? Clearly, you're the winner.

Likewise, if you create a made up religion and use this religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, what exactly is a judge needed for? The fact that you've accomplished it and took over the nation is proof enough.

 

[YmirGF]

Likewise, if you create a made up religion and use this religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, what exactly is a judge needed for? The fact that you've accomplished it and took over the nation is proof enough.

You seem pretty hung up on this notion of conquering. Isn't that a round about way of saying "might is right". In more simplistic terms, in your mind, it's all a numbers game, eh? The more bums past the door, the clearer the proof. Correct? In your terms that would make Chairman Mao a Prophet and his little Green Book, the message.

 

[Fatihah]

You seem pretty hung up on this notion of conquering. Isn't that a round about way of saying "might is right". In more simplistic terms, in your mind, it's all a numbers game, eh? The more bums past the door, the clearer the proof. Correct? In your terms that would make Chairman Mao a Prophet and his little Green Book, the message.

Response: Oh, how you continuosly dodge the challenge and ask for proof at the same time. Your denial is uncanny.

 

[kai]

Response: No judge is necessary. That's right. No judge is necessary. A judge is required when the evidence or proof is not clear. However, the proof of answering the challenge is clear. For example, if we were to have a public race as to who is the fastest between us and you beat me by 2 minutes, are you telling me we need a judge to determine the winner? Clearly, you're the winner.
Yes we do in case i cheat
Likewise, if you create a made up religion and use this religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, what exactly is a judge needed for? The fact that you've accomplished it and took over the nation is proof enough.

proof that conquerors have god on their side ? there's nothing new in that , people have been saying that since people raised armies. and by the way you seem to have a different perspective then most Muslims here who tell me that Islam was spread by peaceful means not conquest.

 

[YmirGF]

Nothing (of people) can be compared to the Qur'an and humans can never produce a sura like it, we Muslims believe this. You don't right ? then prove it 52:30-31 Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!.

But this is using circular logic. Let's take this one apart, ok. Maybe you will see what I mean.

Nothing (of people) can be compared to the Qur'an and humans can never produce a sura like it,

From the get go, it is declared that nothing can ever be compared to the Qur'an. It is declared that humans can never produce a sura like it. So, we have the declaration that this act is impossible. This much is VERY clear.

we Muslims believe this.

This serves to underscore that Muslims will be prejudiced against anything that is offered up in the way of a challenge. They will never take a challenger seriously as they believe the challenge itself IS impossible to fulfill.

You don't right?

In principle, no, however I don't believe the Qur'an is written by what some human animals call "god". I do agree though that the so-called "challenge" is impossible -- and here is the point -- that makes the so-called "challenge" ridiculous because no one CAN fulfill the challenge. The reality is that a challenge is only a challenge if there is some hope that the challenge can be met. If there is no possibility of the challenge being met then you don't actually have a challenge. You have a setup or a stacked deck and it's more than a tad disingenuous to call it a challenge.

then prove it 52:30-31 Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!.

To me, this speaks loudly of Muhammad's vanity. He was so sure of himself by this time that he knew that no one would be fool enough to seriously take the challenge as any rational person would realize that the challenge was impossible. My guess is that Muhammad knew that he could easily be cited as a forger due to the existing myths that he drew on to write the Qur'an. Deftly he turned the tables on his detractors by asking them to forge his work. That takes some balls, really. It neatly circumvents answering the claims he simply lifted old stories he had heard by placing the onus back on his detractors. Then all he needed was some "conquering heroes", as per Fatihah's assertion, to clean up the loose ends that wouldn't be silenced otherwise. Before you know it everyone is walking in lockstep and the detractors evaporate. It's a neat trick if you can pull it off.

Unintelligible Response: Oh, how you continuosly dodge the challenge and ask for proof at the same time. Your denial is uncanny.

What I find amusing is that you realize that the so-called "challenge" is impossible and yet you still feel a need to tell people to do the challenge. Why, pray tell, would I waste my time on something that is clearly impossible or that I have no hope in succeeding at? My inability to "rise to the challenge" does not strengthen the claim of the challenge. It shows the "challenge" for what it is -- hot air.

 

[Shahzad]

So far nobody has produced any criteria from the Quran or the Hadith by which a challenge could be judged, but Muslims are already convinced that such a challenge could never be met because they are told so by... the Quran! Therefore Muslims aren't interested in taking a challenge seriously because they already "know" based on their spurious logic that to meet the challenge is impossible, with the ever present threat of eternal torture in hell hanging over any judgement they might make regarding a Surah like the Quran. How can anyone take the challenge seriously when Muslims themselves don't?

 

[YmirGF]

So far nobody has produced any criteria from the Quran or the Hadith by which a challenge could be judged, but Muslims are already convinced that such a challenge could never be met because they are told so by... the Quran! Therefore Muslims aren't interested in taking a challenge seriously because they already "know" based on their spurious logic that to meet the challenge is impossible, with the ever present threat of eternal torture in hell hanging over any judgement they might make regarding a Surah like the Quran. How can anyone take the challenge seriously when Muslims themselves don't?

Exactly.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE kai]proof that conquerors have god on their side ? there's nothing new in that , people have been saying that since people raised armies.(End quote)

Response: Saying so without proof.

(Quote Kai)
and by the way you seem to have a different perspective then most Muslims here who tell me that Islam was spread by peaceful means not conquest.(End Quote)

Response: No muslim says that the muslims did not conquer. What we say is that it was through an act of self- defense.

 

[England my lionheart]

With this impossible challenge which we will fail,we are told proves the authenticity of the Quran,
normally something has to be proven before it can be disproven,so the challenge that isn't a challenge is based on something thats er not proven,i must say the number 19 Muslims at least try to make it interesting.

 

[McBell]

Response: No judge is necessary. That's right. No judge is necessary. A judge is required when the evidence or proof is not clear. However, the proof of answering the challenge is clear. For example, if we were to have a public race as to who is the fastest between us and you beat me by 2 minutes, are you telling me we need a judge to determine the winner? Clearly, you're the winner.

Likewise, if you create a made up religion and use this religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, what exactly is a judge needed for? The fact that you've accomplished it and took over the nation is proof enough.

What a yawn fest you have going here.

Still, I have to wonder why it is that my points have been thus far totally ignored....

What are the exact conditions of this alleged challenge?
Who is to judge what is submitted?

Why are you Muslims adding conditions to a challenge that was issued directly from Allah himself?

 

[McBell]

What we say is that it was through an act of self- defense.

Wow.
Just when you think the asininity could not get any higher....

 

[kai]

[QUOTE kai]proof that conquerors have god on their side ? there's nothing new in that , people have been saying that since people raised armies.(End quote)

Response: Saying so without proof.

they had all the proof they needed

(Quote Kai)
and by the way you seem to have a different perspective then most Muslims here who tell me that Islam was spread by peaceful means not conquest.(End Quote)

Response: No muslim says that the muslims did not conquer. What we say is that it was through an act of self- defense.

saying so without proof