The Challenge in the Qur'an

[Riverwolf]

:biglaugh: Excuse me i just had to laugh, :tsk: After you lost the challenge you want to claim that it wasn't meant to be for you ?! You shouldn't..As the Qur'an says you lost it you should now as the Qur'an says fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) (and the glorious Qur'an) was sent to all the people.
[Al-Qur'an 34:38]
And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto all mankind; but most of mankind know not.

Said people not only Arabs.
2:21-25
O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewithFruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know(the truth).And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call yourwitnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) aretrue.But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow.Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is whatwe were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (forever).

First of all, I wonder why you waste your time with this kind talk.

"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur.)" (2:6-7, Yusuf Ali's translation.) Doesn't this kind of imply that it's a waste of time to try telling people that they need to fear hellfire? (Especially since I see no purpose in fearing it, even if it's my ultimate fate.)

Second of all, I have not seen him attempt at writing a surah to match the Qur'an, and indeed it would, at this point, be foolish to do so because no set criteria has been established.

Third, I've been reading Scriptures lately (admittedly translations) that surpass the Qur'an in beauty and inspiration, written centuries before Jesus was born. I still withhold some judgment until I can read both these Scriptures and the Qur'an in their original languages, but English can do a lot more than many native speakers realize, and if Yusuf Ali's translation can't hold a candle to Easwaran's translation of the Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita, then I'd say the challenge had already been met long before Mohammad.

HOWEVER, before I say anything else, understand that I have not made a claim that the Qur'an is somehow untrue.

I also say that I cannot meet the challenge, but it's not only because I feel it would be a waste of time, I also am still a novice in the art of Poetry and Spirituality.

 

[riverfox]

First of all, I wonder why you waste your time with this kind talk.

"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur.)" (2:6-7, Yusuf Ali's translation.) Doesn't this kind of imply that it's a waste of time to try telling people that they need to fear hellfire? (Especially since I see no purpose in fearing it, even if it's my ultimate fate.)

Second of all, I have not seen him attempt at writing a surah to match the Qur'an, and indeed it would, at this point, be foolish to do so because no set criteria has been established.

Third, I've been reading Scriptures lately (admittedly translations) that surpass the Qur'an in beauty and inspiration, written centuries before Jesus was born. I still withhold some judgment until I can read both these Scriptures and the Qur'an in their original languages, but English can do a lot more than many native speakers realize, and if Yusuf Ali's translation can't hold a candle to Easwaran's translation of the Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita, then I'd say the challenge had already been met long before Mohammad.

HOWEVER, before I say anything else, understand that I have not made a claim that the Qur'an is somehow untrue.

I also say that I cannot meet the challenge, but it's not only because I feel it would be a waste of time, I also am still a novice in the art of Poetry and Spirituality.

Thank you for your comments and they are very good questions.I hope i can clearify.
Response to your first comment: It is my duty to tell you and your right to know
Allah created all people to test them without them being informed Allah will not punish them in the hereafter.
[Al-Qur'an 4:165]
Messengers who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the messengers, should have no plea against Allah: ForAllah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
A similar message is given in 4:97-99
When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak andoppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allahspacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men willfind their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! -
Except those who are (really) weak and oppressed - men, women, and children - who have no means in their power, nor (a guide-post) totheir way.For these, there is hope that Allah will forgive: For Allah doth blot out (sins) and forgive again and again.
Again it is a Muslim's duty
16:125
Invite all to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: forthy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
41:33
Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"?

Response to second comment: Posted by Islamic research foundation and me
Allah (swt) mentions in Surah Al Baqarah chapter 2 verses 6 and 7
"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them Whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)."
[Al-Qur’an 2:6-7]
These verses do not refer to common Kuffar who reject faith. The Arabic words used are al-lazina kafaroo, those who are bent on rejecting the truth. It will not make any difference to such people whether you warn them or not, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their eyes is a veil. It is not because Allah has set a seal on their hearts that these kuffar do not understand and believe, but it is the vice-versa. It is because these kuffar are bent on rejecting the truth (another type of kuffar showed in the Qur'an is those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Path of Allah )and whether you warn them or not they will not believe, that Allah has set a seal on their hearts. Therefore Allah is not to blame, but these kuffaar who are bent on rejecting the faith are responsible.
Example of teacher predicting a student will fail
Suppose an experienced teacher, before the final examinations, predicts that a particular student will fail in the exams, since the student is very mischievous, not attentive in class and does not do his homework. If after the student appears for the examination, he fails, who is to be blamed for the student failing: the teacher or the student? Just because the teacher predicted, it does not mean that the teacher is to be blamed but the student himself is responsible for his failure.
Similarly Allah (swt) knows in advance that there are some people who are bent on rejecting the faith and Allah has put a seal on their hearts. Thus these non-Muslims themselves are responsible for rejecting the faith and not Allah (swt).

Third: Please keep it up,and please do not neglect the Qur'an's challenge,don't feel it's a waste of time. i.e don't turn away. realizing the probable responsibility makes us spend more time on finding the truth of this life.
20:48
"'Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty (awaits) those who reject and turn away.'"

All the best.

 

[Gharib]

he hasn't lost the challenge no one can tell him what to do if he wants to take it up! we keep asking but we get no consensus so one last time .

the challenge:

whats the criteria?
who is going to judge it?

we cant keep going round and round here if you dont know just say!

If you do know, then tell us and name your source!

what a very nice criteria kai, especially the second one, the person who thought of it must be a litle brainy i must say, cos thats the only thing that is keeping you guys afloat.

(BTW, i'm just posting so i can have this thread in MY REPLIES to see what this thread is going to turn into, cos i think i've seen a similar thread somewhere, just recently and you guys (the non muslims) seem to be using the same excuse everytime, i want to see if someone is going to change that)

 

[England my lionheart]

:biglaugh: Excuse me i just had to laugh, :tsk: After you lost the challenge you want to claim that it wasn't meant to be for you ?! You shouldn't..As the Qur'an says you lost it you should now as the Qur'an says fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) (and the glorious Qur'an) was sent to all the people.
[Al-Qur'an 34:38]
And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto all mankind; but most of mankind know not.

Good,i'm glad it made you laugh,after all there is much comedy in the way some of the followers of Islam go to substantiate their claims,when the Man at a Car Boot sale called out on the megaphone "people,please use exit 2 when you leave" he was obviously addressing the whole world.
As you know nobody believed Muhammed when he first started preaching (the majority of the people of the world don't now) he was called a forger etc ,so the so called challenge that never was only makes sense in the local context.

aid people not only Arabs.
2:21-25
O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewithFruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know(the truth).And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call yourwitnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) aretrue.But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow.Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is whatwe were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (forever).

So if you are truthful you would admit that you do not know the criteria or who will judge the challenge as a universal challenge and instead of gaining credibility for your religion it really does the reverse.

 

[kai]

what a very nice criteria kai, especially the second one, the person who thought of it must be a litle brainy i must say, cos thats the only thing that is keeping you guys afloat.

(BTW, i'm just posting so i can have this thread in MY REPLIES to see what this thread is going to turn into, cos i think i've seen a similar thread somewhere, just recently and you guys (the non muslims) seem to be using the same excuse everytime, i want to see if someone is going to change that)

Ok esalam lets have it ,explain the challenge! whats the criteria and who judges it?

now i for one am not going to ask again. if this thread is going down the plughole because no one will give a straight answer to a straight question then theres no point carrying it on is there.

This roundabout posting ignoring what we say and just keep repeating yourself without backing anything up or explaining anything is just a tactic when debating infidels. I call it the vortex but you just paint yourselves into a corner.

 

[riverfox]

As you know nobody believed Muhammed when he first started preaching (the majority of the people of the world don't now) he was called a forger etc ,so the so called challenge that never was only makes sense in the local context.

Nobody believed in him?! well you are wrong.when He first started calling people to Islam tens of people converted to Islam,soon after big tribes of Madina coverted,and before the conquest of Mecca there were tens of thounsand of Muslims.And after that all of Arabia.Today Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and the second largest religion.
Again you are wrong this callenge made a lot
It has been documented that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) challenged the Arabs to produce a literary work of a similar caliber as the Qur'an, but they were unable to do so in spite of their well-known eloquence and literary powers.

So if you are truthful you would admit that you do not know the criteria or who will judge the challenge as a universal challenge and instead of gaining credibility for your religion it really does the reverse.

The criteria is not a secret the Qur'an said : Bring a sura like it.
It's the Holy Qur'an.

 

[Breathe]

The criteria is not a secret the Qur'an said : Bring a sura like it.
It's the Holy Qur'an.

But what is it? A whole chapter? A whole book? Three lines ~ eight lines?
Does it have to be in Arabic? Rhyme? Poetry?
Can it be altered by anyone other than the one who wrote it?
Etc.

 

[kai]

But what is it? A whole chapter? A whole book? Three lines ~ eight lines?
Does it have to be in Arabic? Rhyme? Poetry?
Can it be altered by anyone other than the one who wrote it?
Etc.

and is the challenge still valid as the prophet is not here to judge it ?

 

[Breathe]

and is the challenge still valid as the prophet is not here to judge it ?

And if so but without a prophet, whom can judge it impartially?

 

[riverfox]

But what is it? A whole chapter? A whole book? Three lines ~ eight lines?
Does it have to be in Arabic? Rhyme? Poetry?
Can it be altered by anyone other than the one who wrote it?
Etc.

The challenge to reproduce the Quran was presented to the Arabs and mankind in three stages:

l. The Whole Quran

In the Quran, God commanded the Prophet to challenge all of creation to create a book of the stature of the Quran:
“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’”(Quran 17:88)

2. Ten Chapters

Next, God made the challenge ostensibly easier by asking those who denied its divine origin to imitate even ten chapters of the Quran:
“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.”(Quran 11:13)

3. One Chapter

This final challenge was to produce even a single chapter to match what is in the Quran, whose shortest chapter, al-Kawthar, consists of only three verses:
“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)

No it doesn't have to be in Arabic ,the answer for the last Qestion is Yes
“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’

 

[kai]

It has been documented that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) challenged the Arabs to produce a literary work of a similar caliber as the Qur'an, but they were unable to do so in spite of their well-known eloquence and literary powers.


who has the audacity to take on the mantle of the prophet to judge what the prophet challenged?

 

[kai]

The challenge to reproduce the Quran was presented to the Arabs and mankind in three stages:

l. The Whole Quran

In the Quran, God commanded the Prophet to challenge all of creation to create a book of the stature of the Quran:
“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’” (Quran 17:88)

2. Ten Chapters

Next, God made the challenge ostensibly easier by asking those who denied its divine origin to imitate even ten chapters of the Quran:
“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:13)

3. One Chapter

This final challenge was to produce even a single chapter to match what is in the Quran, whose shortest chapter, al-Kawthar, consists of only three verses:
“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)

Look this is as clear as mud, i swear that this is all done on purpose because you cant answer the question ,why keep posting the same thing over and over again? . who will be judging it? and on what criteria will he /she base her judgement on? and on whos authority will he be judging it on behalf of Allah? Mohammed was obviously going to be the original judge and issued the original challenge , he is not here, so who is going to judge it now?

 

[Breathe]

The challenge to reproduce the Quran was presented to the Arabs and mankind in three stages:

l. The Whole Quran

In the Quran, God commanded the Prophet to challenge all of creation to create a book of the stature of the Quran:
“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’”(Quran 17:88)

2. Ten Chapters

Next, God made the challenge ostensibly easier by asking those who denied its divine origin to imitate even ten chapters of the Quran:
“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.”(Quran 11:13)

3. One Chapter

This final challenge was to produce even a single chapter to match what is in the Quran, whose shortest chapter, al-Kawthar, consists of only three verses:
“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)

No it doesn't have to be in Arabic ,the answer for the last Qestion is Yes
“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’

What about the rest?
In Arabic? Composed by the author?
Poetry?
etc

 

[England my lionheart]

It has been documented that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) challenged the Arabs to produce a literary work of a similar caliber as the Qur'an, but they were unable to do so in spite of their well-known eloquence and literary powers.TA DA,there we have it ,he challenged the Arabs 1400 ish years ago and not us here in the present.

You say
The criteria is not a secret the Qur'an said : Bring a sura like it.
It's the Holy Qur'an.nt.
and the judge will be ---------- to be announced when someone actually knows.

 

[riverfox]

I said it before.We will use the Qur'an as a criteria and we all will judge.
We judge you true Furqan,aren't happy with that judgement ? Do you still think that it's a Qur'an like?

 

[kai]

I said it before.We will use the Qur'an as a criteria and we all will judge.
We judge you true Furqan,aren't happy with that judgement ? Do you still think that it's a Qur'an like?

whos we ? do you mean Muslims will be the judge? Ha ha well that's to be expected. that's what we call a rigged jury ,a stacked deck, its a bit like asking 12 armed robbers to deliberate a verdict on the trial of an armed robber.

its nonsense. i cant be doing with it anymore. If this is supposed to validate Islam it does just the opposite and you cant even see the harm it does .

 

[riverfox]

whos we ? do you mean Muslims will be the judge? Ha ha well that's to be expected. that's what we call a rigged jury ,a stacked deck, its a bit like asking 12 armed robbers to deliberate a verdict on the trial of an armed robber.

its nonsense. i cant be doing with it anymore. If this is supposed to validate Islam it does just the opposite and you cant even see the harm it does .

Not only Muslims,None-Muslims as well will judge.this challenge was meant to be for them.

 

[kai]

Not only Muslims,None-Muslims as well will judge.this challenge was meant to be for them.

well the problem there my friend is that most non Muslims don't see the Quran as anything special in the first place do they. so what do we go by a majority verdict? or is it up to each individual to judge for himself?

 

[England my lionheart]

I said it before.We will use the Qur'an as a criteria and we all will judge.
We judge you true Furqan,aren't happy with that judgement ? Do you still think that it's a Qur'an like?

Where does it say we all will judge,the true Furqan and a Surah like it were judged and Muslims worldwide protested to have them removed which AOL did,however you can still view A Surahlikeit.com but as a Muslim your immediate response will be to have it removed.
So you can say its a legitimate universal challenge if you like,you can say it has the miracle of 19 if you like,you can say Father Christmas was born a Muslim but you have to prove it by producing the exact criteria and judge and not a rabble of Muslims taling offence when someone actually does take up a challenge that belongs in the far distant past.

 

[Breathe]

Not only Muslims,None-Muslims as well will judge.this challenge was meant to be for them.

I believe the Guru Granth Sahib is equal to the Qur'an in its artistic value, beauty and the meaning behind its text.

Does that mean the Qur'an's challenge has been met?
Didn't think so. It's an impossible challenge to meet, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.