The Challenge in the Qur'an

[Ghostaka]

They're not proven miracles.

What documentaries have you been watching?

How exactly can statements that may have scientific merit be proof of there being a divine origin?

Because, it is a sign. The Qur'an is not a book of science it is a book of signs. Nut-shelled scientific references that are based on knowledge. Knowledge of an extent that did not exist in the past! Would you have preferred thesis papers in the Qur'an?

Many of the verses claimed to be miraculous are either too vague or were known beforehand.

Your assumption. I'll give you an example read on...

Muhammed was a merchant, he travelled all over Arabia and probably made contact with all sorts of people, he was not completely ignorant. Not knowing how to read doesn't mean he couldn't communicate with people and learn a bit about foetal development.

This gets ridiculous every time I read it -- no offense you're not the first person who's said this! OK PoP (can I call you that ?) I'mma give you an example:

As recently as 1984, people were being taught that the sun did not rotate about its own axis. While 1400+ years ago...

It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. {The Holy Qur'an 21:33}

In English, you might consider "swim along" to be "vague". However in Arabic, the particular word mentioned in the verse means to rotate; in addition to the following "each in its rounded course". Most words have synonyms. But if you take the wrong synonym, a statement may differ in meaning; If I say "it was a pig", am I referring to a cop or an animal? Depends on context right? Now if you look at the context, how is it not a reference to axial rotation of a planet/star?!

We did not know this until recently when it was confirmed by using special equipment/solar filters to project an image of the sun on top of a table (so as not to go blind). It is noticed that the sun has spots which complete a circular motion once every 25 days i.e. the sun takes approximately 25 days to rotate round its axis.

Since this (recent) discovery, we are now being taught that the sun indeed rotates about its own axis.

Do you see how naive it is to assume that Muhammad (PBUH) was informed of this by a customer on some trade route? How did the customer know!? Who could have known this at that time?
Not enough?! OK another example:

It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
{The Holy Qur'an 36:40}

This verse mentions an essential fact discovered only recently by modern astronomy, i.e. the existence of the individual orbits of the Sun and the Moon, and their journey through space with their own motion. The fixed place towards which the sun travels, carrying with it the solar system, has been located precisely by modern astronomy. It has been given a name, the Solar Apex.

Was the Solar Apex discussed over coffee in Arabia at that time?!

I would like to see someone try and publish this science miracle stuff in a scientific journal as proof of the divine.

Visit a decent library.

I hope you understood my point.

Peace be upon you.

______________________________

(Moses) said: "O my Lord! expand me my breast;
Ease my task for me;
And remove the impediment from my speech',
So they may understand what I say":
{The Holy Qur'an 20: 25-28}
​

 

[England my lionheart]

Of course
hundreds of miracles,Please everybody i'm asking you,before you frustrate them. try to reply to them,and answer how could people 1400 years ago know all these
Books have been written at that time on scientific facts ? Show them..

THE UNIVERSE IN GASEOUS STATE Then He turned to the heavens, and it was in a gaseous state. And said to it, and the earth; “Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly.” They said, “We come willingly.”
41-Elucidated, 11

PERFECT ORBITS7- By the Sky with its ingeniously devised paths (orbits).
51-The Dispersing, 7

SEX IN PLANTS53- And has sent down water from the sky. With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants.
20-Ta-He, 53

3- ...And fruit of every kind He made in pairs two and two.
13-The Thunder, 3

No need for a sleeping pill tonight :thud:

 

[YmirGF]

Well, I hope everyone now understands why I created this thread. The reason should be obvious. The so-called challenge is a farce and the weird part is that Muslims don't seem to understand why it is a farce. Like, honestly, just give your head a shake.

I must say that listening to the Muslims in this thread is like listening to a pack of trained parrots who can only repeat what they have been told. It doesn't appear that they actually understand what they are repeating... so they keep repeating...

Oy vey.

 

[McBell]

After you lost the challenge

What are the exact conditions of this alleged challenge?
Who is to judge what is submitted?

Why are you Muslims adding conditions to a challenge that was issued directly from Allah himself?

Noone has lost this alleged challenge because you have not been able to answer even the most basic of questions about it.

what a very nice criteria kai, especially the second one, the person who thought of it must be a litle brainy i must say, cos thats the only thing that is keeping you guys afloat.

What are the exact conditions of this alleged challenge?
Who is to judge what is submitted?

Why are you Muslims adding conditions to a challenge that was issued directly from Allah himself?

Until you Muslims can present real answers to these questions, your whole challenge is nothing more than a farce.
But if a farce is good enough for you.....

(BTW, i'm just posting so i can have this thread in MY REPLIES to see what this thread is going to turn into, cos i think i've seen a similar thread somewhere, just recently and you guys (the non muslims) seem to be using the same excuse everytime, i want to see if someone is going to change that)

excuses?
ROTFLMFAO

Did you ever stop and think that perhaps there need not be any other "excuses" presented because the old ones still apply?

The criteria is not a secret the Qur'an said : Bring a sura like it.
It's the Holy Qur'an.

What are the exact conditions of this alleged challenge?
Who is to judge what is submitted?

Why are you Muslims adding conditions to a challenge that was issued directly from Allah himself?

You don't even want to try to meet this challenge right ?
2.24
But if ye cannot, and of a surety ye cannot, then fear the fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

The fear is on your side.
This is easily demonstrated by you 'pigeons playing chess' approach.
Why is it that you cannot even be bothered to give straight forward answers to these questions:

What are the exact conditions of this alleged challenge?
Who is to judge what is submitted?

Why are you Muslims adding conditions to a challenge that was issued directly from Allah himself?
​

Well, I hope everyone now understands why I created this thread. The reason should be obvious. The so-called challenge is a farce and the weird part is that Muslims don't seem to understand why it is a farce. Like, honestly, just give your head a shake.

I have to completely agree.
Not a single Muslim has even tried to give a straight forward honest answer to these three questions:

What are the exact conditions of this alleged challenge?
Who is to judge what is submitted?

Why are you Muslims adding conditions to a challenge that was issued directly from Allah himself?
​

I must say that listening to the Muslims in this thread is like listening to a pack of trained parrots who can only repeat what they have been told. It doesn't appear that they actually understand what they are repeating... so they keep repeating...

This is a most excellent way of putting it!
Hits the nail right square on the head.

 

[Princess Of Peace]

What documentaries have you been watching?

huh? Why is this relevant? You said these miracles were proven and I disagree.

Because, it is a sign. The Qur'an is not a book of science it is a book of signs. Nut-shelled scientific references that are based on knowledge. Knowledge of an extent that did not exist in the past!

Even if it was not known beforehand, why is that proof of a divine origin?

Would you have preferred thesis papers in the Qur'an?

That would have been more helpful I believe.

Your assumption. I'll give you an example read on...

This gets ridiculous every time I read it -- no offense you're not the first person who's said this! OK PoP (can I call you that ?) I'mma give you an example:

As recently as 1984, people were being taught that the sun did not rotate about its own axis. While 1400+ years ago...

It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. {The Holy Qur'an 21:33}

In English, you might consider "swim along" to be "vague". However in Arabic, the particular word mentioned in the verse means to rotate; in addition to the following "each in its rounded course". Most words have synonyms. But if you take the wrong synonym, a statement may differ in meaning; If I say "it was a pig", am I referring to a cop or an animal? Depends on context right? Now if you look at the context, how is it not a reference to axial rotation of a planet/star?!

We did not know this until recently when it was confirmed by using special equipment/solar filters to project an image of the sun on top of a table (so as not to go blind). It is noticed that the sun has spots which complete a circular motion once every 25 days i.e. the sun takes approximately 25 days to rotate round its axis.

Since this (recent) discovery, we are now being taught that the sun indeed rotates about its own axis.

Do you see how naive it is to assume that Muhammad (PBUH) was informed of this by a customer on some trade route? How did the customer know!? Who could have known this at that time?

It appears to be talking about an orbit like the verse you posted after it. Why should we assume it is referring to the rotation of the sun and the moon in this context? The translations of that verse I've looked at refer to orbits as well.

Not enough?! OK another example:

It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
{The Holy Qur'an 36:40}

This verse mentions an essential fact discovered only recently by modern astronomy, i.e. the existence of the individual orbits of the Sun and the Moon, and their journey through space with their own motion. The fixed place towards which the sun travels, carrying with it the solar system, has been located precisely by modern astronomy. It has been given a name, the Solar Apex.

Was the Solar Apex discussed over coffee in Arabia at that time?!

It seems to me like the author believed that the sun as well as the moon went around the Earth. Why should it be interpreted any differently than that? If the author wanted us to understand that verse as talking about the sun going around our galaxy then the author should have included that little detail? This is what I mean when I say vague. Have you read the hadiths talking about how Allah sends the sun to its resting place at his throne when it finishes its travel across the earth? Hardly scientific?

Also what is this nonsense about the sun not catching up with the moon? The author makes it sound like the sun and the moon are in the same orbit or something, which makes it seem even more likely that the author thought the sun went around the Earth. Why is the Earth's rotation and orbit never mentioned in the Quran anyway? It it because the author didn't realise these things?

Visit a decent library.

Why? Will I find anything on science miracles in the Quran published in a scientific journal? I can't imagine anything of that sort doing too well when peer reviewed.


Did you watch that video I posted earlier? If so, what did you think of it?

 

[kai]

Well, I hope everyone now understands why I created this thread. The reason should be obvious. The so-called challenge is a farce and the weird part is that Muslims don't seem to understand why it is a farce. Like, honestly, just give your head a shake.

I must say that listening to the Muslims in this thread is like listening to a pack of trained parrots who can only repeat what they have been told. It doesn't appear that they actually understand what they are repeating... so they keep repeating...

Oy vey.

i have to agree it was an interesting subject and i was interested in the idea of the challenge but its all smoke and mirrors i don't believe there is an honest challenge. and the weirdest thing is the effect religion has on some peoples natural ability to reason.

 

[YmirGF]

i have to agree it was an interesting subject and i was interested in the idea of the challenge but its all smoke and mirrors i don't believe there is an honest challenge. and the weirdest thing is the effect religion has on some peoples natural ability to reason.

I know, Kai. I honestly thought we just might get some kind of rational dialogue going on this. I guess I was just having a senile moment. I also wanted to add that I think you are correct in your idea of the challenge being formed to simply shut up Muhammad's detractors. Now at least we can see how absolutely hollow Fatihah has been when he has demanded several people to take the challenge. CLEARLY, he knows it is not a real challenge and yet he insists on trumpeting it like there IS a possibility that someone might actually succeed. Heck, even someone like a Jesus Christ could not win this one, even with miracles. The more I think of it actually, the more dishonest the so-called challenge is.

 

[Gharib]

Ok esalam lets have it ,explain the challenge! whats the criteria and who judges it?

still haven't got it have you, or anyone else for that matter.

ok here is a BIG HINT; what was the criteria for the quran and who has judged it?

would you like to explain what i mean by that, just so i can see if you kind of get it or not.

now i for one am not going to ask again. if this thread is going down the plughole because no one will give a straight answer to a straight question then theres no point carrying it on is there.

yes i agree, i mean how many times does a question have to be repeated?

and yet you are still repeating it.

This roundabout posting ignoring what we say and just keep repeating yourself without backing anything up or explaining anything is just a tactic when debating infidels.

why would you call yourself an infidel?
why degrade your self?

I call it the vortex but you just paint yourselves into a corner.

i don't think anyone of us muslims is a painter kai. we don't paint.

 

[Gharib]

Well, I hope everyone now understands why I created this thread. The reason should be obvious. The so-called challenge is a farce and the weird part is that Muslims don't seem to understand why it is a farce. Like, honestly, just give your head a shake.

I must say that listening to the Muslims in this thread is like listening to a pack of trained parrots who can only repeat what they have been told. It doesn't appear that they actually understand what they are repeating... so they keep repeating...

Oy vey.

wow nice, you made your point, it is nice that you planned it though, at least you can think.

can we have a round of applause for the man, i think he would like that. :clap

 

[kai]

still haven't got it have you, or anyone else for that matter.

ok here is a BIG HINT; what was the criteria for the quran and who has judged it?

Divine revelation is the criteria for the Quran and it is judged by those that read it

would you like to explain what i mean by that, just so i can see if you kind of get it or not.
Yes please


yes i agree, i mean how many times does a question have to be repeated?

It shouldnt have to be repeated at all , its a very simple question

and yet you are still repeating it.

Yes indeed and you still havnt answered it.



why would you call yourself an infidel?
why degrade your self?

I don't consider any follower of a religion of any kind better than anyone else.


i don't think anyone of us muslims is a painter kai. we don't paint.

maybe thats why you paint yourself into a corner lack of forethought

 

[Gharib]

What are the exact conditions of this alleged challenge?

produce a chapter.

Who is to judge what is submitted?

it will judge itself, just as the quran has judged itself, no one judged the quran.

Why are you Muslims adding conditions to a challenge that was issued directly from Allah himself?

i don't know about that, there might be something in the hadith.

Until you Muslims can present real answers to these questions, your whole challenge is nothing more than a farce.
But if a farce is good enough for you.....

poly want a cracker?

talking about parrots, didn't Ymir just say this?

excuses?
ROTFLMFAO

you have been excused, ROTFLMFAO

Did you ever stop and think that perhaps there need not be any other "excuses" presented because the old ones still apply?

yeah that makes sence, i must say that is the only thing that makes sense coming from you.

 

[Gharib]

you got it now Kai?

your questions have been answered. so where is the chapter?

but fortunately, no one has prepared for that, i would not want anyone to go to hell for something that cannot be done. but i am not prohibiting anyone from doing it.

i'm just saying that, Ymir finnaly showed that he is smarter than what he apperas to be. not taking the challenge, but just trying to "prove" a point.

 

[kai]

Metemia posted very simple questions which once again are avoided . so no one judges the Quran? how on earth can any one revert without making a judgement on the validity of the Quran? did you personally just take someones word for it that its the word of God? or did you read it and make your own judgement?

 

[kai]

you got it now Kai?

your questions have been answered. so where is the chapter?

but fortunately, no one has prepared for that, i would not want anyone to go to hell for something that cannot be done. but i am not prohibiting anyone from doing it.

i'm just saying that, Ymir finnaly showed that he is smarter than what he apperas to be. not taking the challenge, but just trying to "prove" a point.

you havnt answered any question, why do you think you have is a bigger mystery than the so called challenge.In fact you would make a great politician having made an art form out of circumnavigating questions.

 

[Gharib]

ok you still didn't understand my posts, not the one to mestemia and not the one to you.

the quran has been judged by the people, Allah (swt) tells them to judge it, he tells people to find 1 single error or contradiction in it. doesn't that kind of give it away?

how much more do i need to explain this?

do you understand it now?

 

[riverfox]

Bhagavad-Gita.

I was going to ask you what's the miracle behind it, but i think i'll show you that the hindu scriptures speak about Muhammad (PBUH) YouTube - Prophet MUHAMMAD in Hindu Scriptures A miracle !.

 

[riverfox]

Well, I hope everyone now understands why I created this thread. The reason should be obvious. The so-called challenge is a farce and the weird part is that Muslims don't seem to understand why it is a farce. Like, honestly, just give your head a shake.

I must say that listening to the Muslims in this thread is like listening to a pack of trained parrots who can only repeat what they have been told. It doesn't appear that they actually understand what they are repeating... so they keep repeating...

Oy vey.

To all who didn't respond to this challenge
[Al-Qur'an 10:95]
"And you should not be of those who reject the signs of Allah, (for) then you should be one of the losers."

As for me i understand the next 2 verses 10:96-97
"Those against whom the word of thy Lord hath been verified would not believe.Even if every Sign was brought unto them,- until they see (for themselves) the penalty grievous."
And 15:11-15
But never came a messenger to them but they mocked him.Even so do we let it creep into the hearts of the sinners -That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of the ancients have passed away.Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery."

 

[England my lionheart]

I was going to ask you what's the miracle behind it, but i think i'll show you that the hindu scriptures speak about Muhammad (PBUH) YouTube - Prophet MUHAMMAD in Hindu Scriptures A miracle !.

Thats all irrelevant to the challenge that never was,to get back on track we are still waiting for answers.
The absence of other Muslims some on this thread is a glaring statement of how wrong you are,the challenge,as i have shown was local to Arabs 1400 years ago and just repeating "we shall all judge it" does'nt suffice.

 

[Gharib]

Thats all irrelevant to the challenge that never was,to get back on track we are still waiting for answers.
The absence of other Muslims some on this thread is a glaring statement of how wrong you are,the challenge,as i have shown was local to Arabs 1400 years ago and just repeating "we shall all judge it" does'nt suffice.

again with the excuses, it would have worked some many other pages ago england, why are you still making exuses. produce the chapter, it is directed to all the men and jinn, so is anything stopping you?

now you want all the muslims of RF to come here and explain everything AGAIN?

you have been given answers, you have been given everything so, how about amazing us now?

 

[Gharib]

oh i forgot, you are going to ask who is going to be the judge right?