The Challenge in the Qur'an

[riverfox]

And when the disciples said to Christ:
O our Lord teach us a prayer that pleases the Lord of the worlds. (1)
(wa idh kalal hawari'yoona lil-maseehi rabbana allimna salatan turdee
rabbal alameen)

He said, so lift your hearts toward heaven
and do not reiterate the words (do not be loquacious) like the hypocrites. (2)
(kala farfa'oo ilal alya'ee kuloobakum wala tukarrirul kalama
kalmunafikeen)

It is He who made of you spiritual children for Him
when He breathed into your chests granting you a spirit of your own
so devote yourselves to him with reverence. (3)
(huwal ladhi sawakumu bir-roohi abna'an lahoo idh nafakha min roohihi fi
sudoorikum roohan lakum faknutoo lahu khashi'een)

And address Him as children {do}. (4)
(wakhatiboohu kabaneen)

Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come; thy will be done, for ever and ever. (5)
(abanal ladhi fissamawati liyatakaddas'ismuka, liya'ti malakootuka,
litakun mashee'atuka, ila abadil abideen)

On earth as it is in heaven, at all times and all places. (6)
(kama fissama'ee kadhalika ala ardi fi kulli makanen wafi kulli heen)

O our Lord, our daily bread give us this day
and forgive us our trespasses, O the most merciful. (7)
(Rabbana khubzana kafafana a'tinal yawma waghfer lana dhunoobana
ya arhamar rahimeen.)

As we forgive all of those who trespass against us. (8)
(kama naghfiru nahnoo likulli man kanoo bihakkina mukhti'een)

Our Lord, and lead us not into temptation;
Against the devil thine aid we truly seek. (9)
(Rabbana wala tudkhilna fi tajrubaten inna alashirriri bika nasta'een)
- From Surat Ad-Du'a ("The Prayer")
For you.


I can see some harakat vowel markers (or are they tashkil?)... don't forget the vowels were added after in Arabic script, as were the dots.

"Early manuscripts of the Qurʾan did not use diacritics either for vowels or to distinguish the different values of the rasm. Vowels pointing was introduced first, as a red dot placed above, below, or beside the rasm, and later consonant pointing was introduced, as thin, short black single or multiple dashes placed above or below the rasm. These iʿjam became black dots about the same time as the harakat became small black letters or strokes." - From Arabic diacritics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you guess which one it is without markers? Or even read it correctly?
So, if this was the case, then wouldn't the Qur'an also fail? Surely you can't be implying that!!

A harkat is a sign placed above or below the letter to the Arabic letter ti clarify the pronunciation of the letter.harakats wasn't used in Arabic language in the pre-Islamic era.
Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).
The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.
Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.
It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions,Who devised a method to transcribe correct pronunciation and reading .

From wikipeadia:
History of harakat

According to tradition, the first to commission a system of harakat was Muawiyah I of the Umayyad dynasty, when he ordered Ziad Ibn Abih, his wāli in Basra (governed 664-673), to find someone to who would devise a method to transcribe correct reading. Ziad Ibn Abih, in turn, appointed Abu al-Aswad al-Du'ali for the task. Abu al-Aswad devised a system of dots to signal the three short vowels (along with their respective allophones) of Arabic. This system of dots predates the i'jam, dots used to distinguish between different consonants.

Evolution of early Arabic calligraphy (9th - 11th century). The Basmala was taken as an example, from kufic Qur’an manuscripts. (1) Early 9th century. script with no dots or diacritic marks [1]; (2) and (3)9th - 10th century under Abbasid dynasty, the Abu al-Aswad's system establish red dots with each arrangement or position indicating a different short vowel. Later, a second black dots system was used to differentiate between letters like "fāʼ" and "qāf" [2] [3]; (4) 11th century, In Al Farāhídi's system (system we know today) dots were changed into shapes resembling the letters to transcribe the corresponding long vowels [4].




Abu al-Aswad's system

Abu al-Aswad's system of Harakat was different from the system we know today. The system used red dots with each arrangement or position indicating a different short vowel. A dot above a letter indicated the vowel "a", a dot below indicated the vowel "i", a dot on the side of a letter stood for the vowel "u", and two dots stood for the tanwin. However, the early manuscripts of the Qur'an did not use the vowel signs for every letter requiring them, but only for letters where they were necessary for a correct reading.

Al Farāhídi's system

This is the precursor to the system we know today. Al Farāhídi found that the task of writing using two different colours was tedious and impractical. Another complication was that the i'jam had been introduced by then, which, while they were short strokes rather than the round dots seen today, meant that without a color distinction the two could become confused. Accordingly he changed the harakat into shapes resembling the letters used to transcribe the corresponding long vowels. His system evolved to the system we know today

 

[McBell]

the challenge of the quran is not rigged,

Yes it is.
Any challenge from an imaginary friend is rigged.
Regardless of how real you think said imaginary friend is.

it is very simple, create a chapter, how hard could it be right?

Not hard at all.
Yet the problem is that your imaginary friend, you know, the entity you claim has actually issued the challenge, will not be available to judge said created chapter.

This being the fact of the matter, who is supposed to judge the submitted chapter?

oh wait it is, i forgot. too bad i guess,

You really should try stand up comedy.
You would be good at it.

but i would be encouraging none of you to take it though, Allah (swt) has said he would punish that person with etternal hell if he failed, and i am now wondering how is it possible for a man to beat a god?

I have absolutely no fear of your imaginary friend.

Interesting how so many all powerful, all knowing deities are completely helpless with out their flocks of followers....

 

[kai]

The failure of imitating the Qur'an is in itself miraculous!
It very easy to imitate the Quran, i believe the challenge is to make something equal to the Quran in the mind of a Muslim.
In fact i beleive the challenge is to produce something that will make you doubt the divine essence of the Quran an altogether different thing as you are dealing with peoples Faith
And yes the language of the Qur'an is a miracle.

So Arabic is a Miracle?

 

[Gharib]

Yes it is.
Any challenge from an imaginary friend is rigged.
Regardless of how real you think said imaginary friend is.

then there should be no problem to dissprove this imaginary friend should it? and yet here we are, you still making statements but no chapter to back it up with.

one question, how long are we going to go with this? i'm kind of tired aren't you, from going round and round?

Not hard at all.
Yet the problem is that your imaginary friend, you know, the entity you claim has actually issued the challenge, will not be available to judge said created chapter.

This being the fact of the matter, who is supposed to judge the submitted chapter?

see this is why i can't be bothered sometimes, but i just like the igonrance you and the other non muslims are showing. it really says alot about you guys.

god was not the judge of the quran, he has asked men to be the judges, he has asked men to find any errors in the quran, and if it does have any then it would not be from god.

so now you want to challenge god and you want him to judge, i wonder how that would work? let me put you out of your missory ok, the question that mestemia is really asking is, SHOW ME GOD AND I WILL BELIEVE IN HIM, otherwise he doesn't exist, nice. you can just say it, why do it in a backward way?

You really should try stand up comedy.
You would be good at it.

i thought you were the comedian, it seems you can tell who has talent, it has to do with experiance i guess.

I have absolutely no fear of your imaginary friend.

we shall see. judgement day is getting closer each day.

Interesting how so many all powerful, all knowing deities are completely helpless with out their flocks of followers....

have you really been able to understand that all by yourself? are you sure no one is helping you? no cheating ok :slap: use your own brain.

 

[Gharib]

So Arabic is a Miracle?

yes it is, still the same 14 hundred years and counting......

 

[kai]

i understand what you are sying, but, there is a BUT here ok.

the challenge of the quran is not rigged, the only problem for you is that, you cannot compete with god, your creator, my creator, the creator of everything. you having more knowledge than me of your own challenge does not mean it is rigged, it means you are it's master, so no one can dissprove it, due to you having created it and is very powerful.

now do you get what i mean?

the challenge of the quran is not rigged, it is very simple, create a chapter, how hard could it be right? oh wait it is, i forgot. too bad i guess, but i would be encouraging none of you to take it though, Allah (swt) has said he would punish that person with etternal hell if he failed, and i am now wondering how is it possible for a man to beat a god?

Esalam the challeng is rigged because it would have to be judged by muslims .

it would have to be subject to and go against your faith. we can do it easily lots of literature are equal to the Quran for us, its you and Muslims in general that would not accept it , that's why its not even an honest challenge, what it is a challenge to affect your faith.


its like saying go ahead produce something that will shake my faith ,

 

[kai]

yes it is, still the same 14 hundred years and counting......

thats not a miracle thats a direct result of Arabs directing Islam , its a direct result in the only true Quran being in Arabic. Its fascinating yes but a direct result of Arabic manipulation of Empire by making their language Holy. and its not strictly true that its unchanged.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language

 

[Gharib]

Esalam the challeng is rigged because it would have to be judged by muslims .

it would have to be subject to and go against your faith. we can do it easily lots of literature are equal to the Quran for us, its you and Muslims in general that would not accept it , that's why its not even an honest challenge, what it is a challenge to affect your faith.


its like saying go ahead produce something that will shake my faith ,

well go ahead then, do it.

when Allah (swt) revealed the quran, there were no muslims, it was revealed to igonrant people who would kill their own daughters, so they judged and accepted it, you can judge it if you want with honesty and let us know of any errors, but don't go to the first anti-islamic website you can find and say here theres an error, YOU find one yourself.

 

[Gharib]

thats not a miracle thats a direct result of Arabs directing Islam , its a direct result in the only true Quran being in Arabic. Its fascinating yes but a direct result of Arabic manipulation of Empire by making their language Holy. and its not strictly true that its unchanged.


Arabic language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is unchanged, the quran i have today at home compared to the quran some 1400 years ago is THE SAME, only the type of writting style might be different, computer vs hand writting is different.

 

[kai]

well go ahead then, do it.

when Allah (swt) revealed the quran, there were no muslims, it was revealed to igonrant people who would kill their own daughters, so they judged and accepted it, you can judge it if you want with honesty and let us know of any errors, but don't go to the first anti-islamic website you can find and say here theres an error, YOU find one yourself.

Impossible to know what would shake your faith esalam,

Of course there are Mulims who have left Islam so something probably shook their faith. every person is an individual.and have their own strength of faith.

i have judged, so have you, the challenge surely would be not to shake your faith but to produce something thats universally revealling to all.

In reality every science book every piece of literature concerning faith,science,Life itself, everything is a challenge not to the Quran because it stands on its own merit, but to your faith in the belief that its of divine origin

 

[kai]

it is unchanged, the quran i have today at home compared to the quran some 1400 years ago is THE SAME, only the type of writting style might be different, computer vs hand writting is different.

How is that a miracle? thats a decision made by People not to change or alter their holy book , How is it a miracle and not an Organisational policy of Islam?


and the challenge has already been answered for me , my life experiences have given me the belief so far ,that there is no celestial overlord.

 

[Breathe]

odion, i am not talking about some 14 hundred years ago, it was only the arabs that knew of the quran at that time and once islam started spreadig then they made it easy for people to understand it, or read it i should say. i'm talking about the present not 1400 years ago, and if the person who has written that thing (what you showed me before) lived during the time of the prophet then i would not bee saying this, but it is written in the 21'st century.

so again, FAILURE is the word, ok.

So it's impossible for the challenge to be met in your opinion because it's the 21st century now?

 

[Breathe]

A harkat is a sign placed above or below the letter to the Arabic letter ti clarify the pronunciation of the letter.harakats wasn't used in Arabic language in the pre-Islamic era.

I know, but doesn't this mean that the Qur'an has been changed somewhat - because of the addition of harakat and i‘jam, and just tashkil in general? Sure, the meaning hasn't been changed, but people have still altered the script in some way, correct?

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

Forgive me for sounding skeptical, but doesn't that mean it would be easy to alter contradictory verses like that?

Did anyone else see the angel? How do they know he revised them with Muhammad?

After all, the Qur'an was made by one man, and "revised" and "reconfirmed" (what does that mean?) by one man, the Bible by over 40 in "traditional" Biblical interpretation, and possibly nearer to double that number in modern scholarship.... which is why the Bible is a mess.

 

[McBell]

then there should be no problem to dissprove this imaginary friend should it? and yet here we are, you still making statements but no chapter to back it up with.

one question, how long are we going to go with this? i'm kind of tired aren't you, from going round and round?

see this is why i can't be bothered sometimes, but i just like the igonrance you and the other non muslims are showing. it really says alot about you guys.

god was not the judge of the quran, he has asked men to be the judges, he has asked men to find any errors in the quran, and if it does have any then it would not be from god.

so now you want to challenge god and you want him to judge, i wonder how that would work? let me put you out of your missory ok, the question that mestemia is really asking is, SHOW ME GOD AND I WILL BELIEVE IN HIM, otherwise he doesn't exist, nice. you can just say it, why do it in a backward way?

i thought you were the comedian, it seems you can tell who has talent, it has to do with experiance i guess.

we shall see. judgement day is getting closer each day.

have you really been able to understand that all by yourself? are you sure no one is helping you? no cheating ok :slap: use your own brain.

You inability to understand the facts in no way changes the facts.

Sadly you are far to busy making strawmen than you are actually explaining anything.

Since you would rather dictate to me what I believe and what I am saying instead of trying to understand what I am saying, I am done with you like I am done with Fatihah.


You run on back to your flock now....

 

[England my lionheart]

odion, i am not talking about some 14 hundred years ago, it was only the arabs that knew of the quran at that time and once islam started spreadig then they made it easy for people to understand it, or read it i should say. i'm talking about the present not 1400 years ago, and if the person who has written that thing (what you showed me before) lived during the time of the prophet then i would not bee saying this, but it is written in the 21'st century.

so again, FAILURE is the word, ok.

Lets just put the brakes on here,the Quran was'nt distributed in written form during Muhammeds lifetime and it was by oral transmition and this is probably where the grammatical errors in the Quran occur(but thats another thread) so this isn't a book that rolled off the printing press 1400 years ago.

 

[YmirGF]

i understand what you are sying, but, there is a BUT here ok.

I wonder why it is that there is always this "big but" in conversations with Muslims. Nothing is ever straightforward with you folks. I have a few theories as to why this is, but the rules of RF preclude me from giving my full and frank opinion on the matter.

the challenge of the quran is not rigged,

Ok, then it must, stress MUST, be possible for me to successfully answer the challenge. Can you outline the precise guidelines for me to follow, so that I know that I am on the right track?

The point is, that if you cannot give me clear guidelines as to what is required by the challenge then you are not being honest with me and the challenge is no longer a challenge, but rather, a rigged setup that is designed to make the challenger a lightning-rod for Muslim to set upon with fanatical glee.

the only problem for you is that, you cannot compete with god, your creator, my creator, the creator of everything.

Then this very statement proves that the challenge is rigged and cannot be successfully addressed. In this way it is not a realistic challenge as a mere mortal has no hope of being successful and if they TRY -- they will FAIL -- and incur a fate worse than death. And Muslims think that this challenge is reasonable?

*YmirGF gives his head a shake*

you having more knowledge than me of your own challenge does not mean it is rigged, it means you are it's master, so no one can dissprove it, due to you having created it and is very powerful.

No, Eselam. If you have no chance of successfully completing my challenge then it isn't really a challenge to begin with. And don't forget -- if you take on my challenge -- and fail -- which you will -- you will get a punishment worse than death for failing.

Again -- this is unreasonable and illogical.

now do you get what i mean?

I hear you, Eselam, It's just that you don't understand the ramifications of the challenge of the Qur'an well enough to answer serious questions about it. I DO NOT mean that as an insult, but simply as a statement of fact.

the challenge of the quran is not rigged, it is very simple, create a chapter, how hard could it be right?

I can easily match the Qur'an for eloquence. I can easily match the inclusion of scientific tidbits. Making it poetic and rhyming would be tough. Making it work out from a numerological standpoint would be very tough. Including miracles would be a challenge -- but due to the nature of miracles -- it would not be impossible. Making it sound enough for modern educated people to foment enough fanatical zeal so as to supplant the government in their country would be near impossible as educated people are not easily led.

(Aside: This touches on another aspect of the Qur'an that simply wouldn't work anymore. If the Qur'an was "brought down" in our own era -- there is no possibility that Muhammad would gain much ground and would either be carted off to a mental institution or spend his life in prison. The point is that such a "revelatory message" ONLY works on an uneducated audience. That is partially why Islam is spreading so fast in third world populations. Show me a country where Islam is spreading fast and I'll show you a country where the educations systems is very poor.)

oh wait it is, i forgot. too bad i guess, but i would be encouraging none of you to take it though, Allah (swt) has said he would punish that person with etternal hell if he failed, and i am now wondering how is it possible for a man to beat a god?

That is one way to look at it, but it is also impossible for you to succeed against a system or challenge that is designed in such a way that you can never succeed. The so-called challenge of the Qur'an works on such a system. Part of the problem here is that if you were to try an influence a people with the answer to the challenge you would have to find a large group of people without access to modern education. I suppose we could look around in third world countries but the point is that this challenge is no longer possible on that basis alone as we have no ready access to pliant masses who COULD make a leap of faith that our challenge WAS worthy of following.

Think long and hard about this aspect, Eselam, because I believe I have just blown the challenge right out of the water. Even if it was possible to complete the challenge long ago, it is no longer possible in our modern world.

 

[Sajdah]

Lets just put the brakes on here,the Quran was'nt distributed in written form during Muhammeds lifetime and it was by oral transmition and this is probably where the grammatical errors in the Quran occur(but thats another thread) so this isn't a book that rolled off the printing press 1400 years ago.

Wow...That's amazing, you can easily point out to the grammatical errors in the Qur'an although the fact that you don't know how arabic letters look like. :sarcastic

 

[Sajdah]

So, by this reasoning a successful challenger to the Qur'an would also have to be considered miraculous.

It is somewhat miraculous that people find the language of the Qur'an to be noteworthy.

It is somewhat weird that people are giving their opinions on something they really don't know.

 

[England my lionheart]

Esalam the challeng is rigged because it would have to be judged by muslims .

it would have to be subject to and go against your faith. we can do it easily lots of literature are equal to the Quran for us, its you and Muslims in general that would not accept it , that's why its not even an honest challenge, what it is a challenge to affect your faith.


its like saying go ahead produce something that will shake my faith ,

Good post Kai,its the failure to look from a different perspective,to me the Quran is a book of faith,its the paranoia of Islam that only sees anything as an attack that does'nt come from the book.
Miraculous is a very big word and it would be amazing if Muhammed did fly on a winged Horse to Jerusalem and to Muslims he did but to other people we would have to see it to believe it and even then we would be looking for the strings that make it fly.
This never was a universal challenge,it was a bit of prose and poetry to support Muhammeds claim to be a Prophet 1400 years ago and never planned to go beyond that and its a challenge that no Muslim dares to take up as there is no grey area to being a Muslim.
There is nothing wrong with having faith but people pushing the so called challenged that has no criteria or Judge goes along the lines of "Muhammed in the song of Solomon" or "the scientific miracles of the Quran" or the miracle of the number 19 in the Quran,far from promoting Islam it achieves the opposite.

 

[Sajdah]

It very easy to imitate the Quran,

If so, then do that.

I believe the challenge is to make something equal to the Quran in the mind of a Muslim. In fact i beleive the challenge is to produce something that will make you doubt the divine essence of the Quran an altogether different thing as you are dealing with peoples Faith

on the contrary, the challenge is to produce verse or chapter like the Qur'an, and when you fail, you will realize that the Qur'an is Allah's words. So the challenge is for you Kai, not for me.

So Arabic is a Miracle

The language in the Qur'an is a miracle, and as I've presented earlier Arabic is unique.