The Challenge in the Qur'an

[England my lionheart]

Wow...That's amazing, you can easily point out to the grammatical errors in the Qur'an although the fact that you don't know how arabic letters look like. :sarcastic

If you wish we can start another thread on this subject as we should stay on the topic of this one.

 

[Sajdah]

If you wish we can start another thread on this subject as we should stay on the topic of this one.

Really! that can be said if it was me who started talking about that suspicion.

 

[YmirGF]

It is somewhat weird that people are giving their opinions on something they really don't know.

Indeed. I get that feeling all the time when I am reading the comments written by Muslims. :beach:

 

[England my lionheart]

Really! that can be said if it was me who started talking about that suspicion.

I am just about to coin a phrase "Islamic paranoia" i mean come on ,try thinking outside of your box,i am not attacking Islam as a faith,i am however questioning these claims,surely thats ok in the 21st century.

 

[England my lionheart]

I wonder why it is that there is always this "big but" in conversations with Muslims. Nothing is ever straightforward with you folks. I have a few theories as to why this is, but the rules of RF preclude me from giving my full and frank opinion on the matter.

Ok, then it must, stress MUST, be possible for me to successfully answer the challenge. Can you outline the precise guidelines for me to follow, so that I know that I am on the right track?

The point is, that if you cannot give me clear guidelines as to what is required by the challenge then you are not being honest with me and the challenge is no longer a challenge, but rather, a rigged setup that is designed to make the challenger a lightning-rod for Muslim to set upon with fanatical glee.

Then this very statement proves that the challenge is rigged and cannot be successfully addressed. In this way it is not a realistic challenge as a mere mortal has no hope of being successful and if they TRY -- they will FAIL -- and incur a fate worse than death. And Muslims think that this challenge is reasonable?

*YmirGF gives his head a shake*


No, Eselam. If you have no chance of successfully completing my challenge then it isn't really a challenge to begin with. And don't forget -- if you take on my challenge -- and fail -- which you will -- you will get a punishment worse than death for failing.

Again -- this is unreasonable and illogical.

I hear you, Eselam, It's just that you don't understand the ramifications of the challenge of the Qur'an well enough to answer serious questions about it. I DO NOT mean that as an insult, but simply as a statement of fact.


I can easily match the Qur'an for eloquence. I can easily match the inclusion of scientific tidbits. Making it poetic and rhyming would be tough. Making it work out from a numerological standpoint would be very tough. Including miracles would be a challenge -- but due to the nature of miracles -- it would not be impossible. Making it sound enough for modern educated people to foment enough fanatical zeal so as to supplant the government in their country would be near impossible as educated people are not easily led.

(Aside: This touches on another aspect of the Qur'an that simply wouldn't work anymore. If the Qur'an was "brought down" in our own era -- there is no possibility that Muhammad would gain much ground and would either be carted off to a mental institution or spend his life in prison. The point is that such a "revelatory message" ONLY works on an uneducated audience. That is partially why Islam is spreading so fast in third world populations. Show me a country where Islam is spreading fast and I'll show you a country where the educations systems is very poor.)

That is one way to look at it, but it is also impossible for you to succeed against a system or challenge that is designed in such a way that you can never succeed. The so-called challenge of the Qur'an works on such a system. Part of the problem here is that if you were to try an influence a people with the answer to the challenge you would have to find a large group of people without access to modern education. I suppose we could look around in third world countries but the point is that this challenge is no longer possible on that basis alone as we have no ready access to pliant masses who COULD make a leap of faith that our challenge WAS worthy of following.

Think long and hard about this aspect, Eselam, because I believe I have just blown the challenge right out of the water. Even if it was possible to complete the challenge long ago, it is no longer possible in our modern world.

Excellently put Ymir.

 

[Princess Of Peace]

no, i can only read, not very good at it but good enough to have disproven that thing what ever it was.

Wait, so you cannot even understand Arabic yet you're so sure that the language of the Quran is miraculous. How the hell would you even know if you don't know the language yourself?

 

[kai]

[/COLOR] [/COLOR]
If so, then do that.

all holy scripture from any time and any religion is like the Quran.Anything written that has moved people to believe in the divine, .


on the contrary, the challenge is to produce verse or chapter like the Qur'an, and when you fail, you will realize that the Qur'an is Allah's words. So the challenge is for you Kai, not for me.

as i said its already been done to my satisfaction.


The language in the Qur'an is a miracle, and as I've presented earlier Arabic is unique.

Then you are easily impressed and what you consider a miracle is not universal is it.What is unique about Arabic? and I mean the language itself . what sets it aprt from all other languages. and please dont give me any political or religious influences just linguistic.



Arabic is a language which evolved from an earlier language just like any other. Unfortunately your faith forbids you to think out of the box for a moment ,and thats the most worrying point to me ,you have been blinkered.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/arabic.htm




Please forgive the length of the copy and paste but heres a list of religious scripture , of course as a Muslim none can equal the Quran but to all non Muslims they either equal or surpass depending whether you are a devotee or not. To me they are all equally valid as religious text, although some haven't had the benefit of Empire to help them along.

Ayyavazhi
The Akilathirattu Ammanai
The Arul Nool
[edit]Bahá'í Faith
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas
Kitáb-i-Íqán
and other Bahá'í literature including works from other faiths
[edit]Bön
Bon Kangyur and Tengyur
[edit]Buddhism


Ancient style of scripture used for the Pāli Canon
Theravada Buddhism
The Tipitaka aka Pāli Canon
East Asian Mahayana
The Chinese Buddhist Tripiṭaka, including
Diamond Sutra
Pure Land Buddhism
Infinite Life Sutra
Amitabha Sutra
Contemplation Sutra
other Pure Land Sutras
Tiantai, Tendai, and Nichiren
Lotus Sutra
Shingon
Mahavairocana Sutra
Vajrasekhara Sutra
Tibetan Buddhism
Tibetan Kangyur and Tengyur
[edit]Christianity


Christian Bible, 1407 handwritten copy
The Books of the Bible
Some forms of Christianity:
The Apocrypha
Latter Day Saint denominations (see also Standard Works):
The Book of Mormon
The Pearl of Great Price
The Doctrine and Covenants
Cerdonianism and Marcionism
Gospel of Marcion
Pauline epistles
Paulicianism
Gospel of Luke
Pauline epistles
Gnosticism
Nag Hammadi library
[edit]Confucianism
The Five Classics
The Four Books
[edit]Discordianism
The Principia Discordia
The Apocrypha Discordia
[edit]Druze
Rasa'il al-hikmah (Epistles of Wisdom)
[edit]Etruscan religion
Cippus Perusinus
Liber Linteus
Pyrgi Tablets
Tabula Cortonensis
[edit]Hermeticism
Hermetica, Emerald Tablet and associated writings
[edit]Hinduism


The Bhagavad Gita is Lord Krishna's counsel to Arjuna on the battlefield of the Kurukshetra.
Śruti
Vedas
Rig Veda
Sama Veda
Yajur Veda
Atharva Veda
Brahmanas
Aranyakas
Upanishads
Smriti
Itihāsas
Mahābhārata (including the Bhagavad Gita)
Bhagavad Gita
Ramayana
Puranas (List)
Bhagavata Purana
Tantras
Sutras (List)
Stotras
Ashtavakra Gita
Gherand Samhita
Gita Govinda
Hatha Yoga Pradipika
In Purva Mimamsa
Purva Mimamsa Sutras
In Vedanta (Uttar Mimamsa)
Brahma Sutras of Vyasa
In Yoga
Yoga Sutras of Patanjali
In Samkhya
Samkhya Sutras of Kapila
In Nyaya
Nyāya Sūtras of Gautama
In Vaisheshika
Vaisheshika Sutras of Kanada
In Vaishnavism
Vaikhanasa Samhitas
Pancaratra Samhitas
In Saktism
Sakta Tantras
In Kashmir Saivism
64 Bhairavagamas
28 Shaiva Agamas
Shiva Sutras
In Pashupata Shaivism
Pashupata Sutras of Lakulish
Panchartha-bhashya of Kaundinya (a commentary on the Pashupata Sutras)
Ganakarika
Ratnatika of Bhasarvajna
In Shaiva Siddhanta
28 Saiva Agamas
Tirumurai (canon of 12 works)
Meykandar Shastras (canon of 14 works)
In Gaudiya Vaishnavism
Brahma Samhita
Jayadeva's Gita Govinda
Krishna-karnamrita
Chaitanya Bhagavata
Chaitanya Charitamrita
Prema-bhakti-candrika
Hari-bhakti-vilasa
In Kabir Panth
poems of Kabir
In Dadu Panth
poems of Dadu
[edit]Islam


11th Century North African Qur’an in the British Museum
Qur'an (Islamic holy books, Al-Quran, 'the Recitation')
Hadith (sayings and actions of Muhammad)
[edit]Jainism
Svetambara
11 Angas
Secondary
12 Upangas, 4 Mula-sutras, 6 Cheda-sutras, 2 Culika-sutras, 10 Prakirnakas
Digambara
Karmaprabhrita, also called Satkhandagama
Kashayaprabhrita
Nonsectarian/Nonspecific
Jina Vijaya
Tattvartha Sutra
GandhaHasti Mahabhashya (authoratative and oldest commentary on the Tattvartha Sutra)
[edit]Judaism


A Sefer Torah opened for liturgical use in a synagogue service
The Tanakh (Hebrew Bible)
Torah
Nevi'im (prophets)
Ketuvim
The Talmud
Mishnah
Gemara
[edit]Lingayatism
Siddhanta Shikhamani
Vachana sahitya
Mantra Gopya
Shoonya Sampadane
28 Agamas
Karana Hasuge
Basava Purana
[edit]Mandaeanism
The Ginza Rba
Book of the Zodiac
Qolusta, Canonical Prayerbook
Book of John the Baptizer
Diwan Abatur, Purgatories
1012 Questions
Coronation of Shislam Rba
Baptism of Hibil Ziwa
Haran Gawaita
[edit]Manichaeism
The Arzhang
[edit]Meher Baba
God Speaks
[edit]New Age religions
Various New Age religions may regard any of the following texts as inspired:
A Course in Miracles
Conversations with God
Oahspe
The Bible
The Gnostic Gospels
The Urantia Book
Isis Unveiled
[edit]Orphism
Orphic Poems
[edit]Pastafarianism


Cover of The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
[edit]Rastafarianism
The Bible
the Holy Piby
the Kebra Negast
The speeches and writings of Haile Selassie I
Royal Parchment Scroll of Black Supremacy
[edit]Samaritanism
The Samaritan Pentateuch
[edit]Satanism
The Satanic Bible
[edit]Scientology
Scientology is commonly considered a commercial enterprise, rather than a religion. However, adherents believe that the following are "religious" texts.
Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health
List of Scientology texts
[edit]Shinto
The Kojiki
The Nihon Shoki or Nihongi
[edit]Sikhism
The Guru Granth Sahib
The Dasven Padshah Da Granth
[edit]Spiritism
The Spirits Book
The Book on Mediums
The Gospel According to Spiritism
Heaven and Hell
The Genesis According to Spiritism
[edit]Swedenborgianism
The Bible
The works of Emanuel Swedenborg
[edit]Taoism
Daozang
Tao Te Ching
Zhuangzi
[edit]Thelema
Holy Books of Thelema especially The Book of the Law
[edit]Unification Church
Divine Principle
[edit]Yazidi
Yazidi Black Book
Yazidi Book of Revelation
[edit]Zoroastrianism


Yasna 28.1 (Bodleian MS J2)
Primary religious texts, that is, the Avesta collection:
The Yasna, the primary liturgical collection, includes the Gathas.
The Visperad, a collection of supplements to the Yasna.
The Yashts, hymns in honor of the divinities.
The Vendidad, describes the various forms of evil spirits and ways to confound them.
shorter texts and prayers, the five Nyaishes ("worship, praise"), the Sirozeh and the Afringans (blessings).
There are some 60 secondary religious texts, none of which are considered scripture. The most important of these are:
The Denkard (middle Persian, 'Acts of Religion'),
The Bundahishn, (middle Persian, 'Primordial Creation')
The Menog-i Khrad, (middle Persian, 'Spirit of Wisdom')
The Arda Viraf Namak (middle Persian, 'The Book of Arda Viraf')
The Sad-dar (modern Persian, 'Hundred Doors', or 'Hundred Chapters')
The Rivayats, 15th-18th century correspondence on religious issues
For general use by the laity:
The Zend (lit. commentaries), various commentaries on and translations of the Avesta.
The Khordeh Avesta, a collection of everyday prayers from the Avesta.
[edit]

 

[Zindagee Rahmaan]

OKay ! I was in wait of such scriptures list Mr. Kai!

Now bring the challenge of Quran with compare to these scriptures. Wait for my edit coz net is really getting out!

 

[kai]

OKay ! I was in wait of such scriptures list Mr. Kai!

Now bring the challenge of Quran with compare to these scriptures. Wait for my edit coz net is really getting out!

But Zindagee Rahman i already have.

As far as i can tell they all fulfil the challenge to each follower of each religion. as someone said we all judge the challenge so each person that follows his own religion believes he is on the right path and has met and overcome the challenge Just as you do. for every truly devout Muslim there is a devout something else.

Each religious scripture carries its own challenge --to beleive or not beleive .

 

[Zindagee Rahmaan]

But Zindagee Rahman i already have.

As far as i can tell they all fulfil the challenge to each follower of each religion. as someone said we all judge the challenge so each person that follows his own religion believes he is on the right path and has met and overcome the challenge Just as you do. for every truly devout Muslim there is a devout something else.

Each religious scripture carries its own challenge --to beleive or not beleive .

These different religion are dividing people divinly, do you know? Islam is in favor of unity through one God. So!

Let me complete my satement,

There is a concept of Jannah (Paradise) almost in all scriptures; I would like to give you linguistic and descriptive beauty of Quran. How much deeply you can imagine Jannah/Paradise, let say, spouse thorn beauty rivers gardens ect ect. Quran defines Jannah in just a single statement. It gives the description of Paradise in a single statement, Here!

لَّهُمْ فِيهَا مَا يَشَآءُونَ خَالِدِينَ كَانَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ وَعْداً مَّسْئُولاً

25:16. "For them there will be therein all that they wish for: they will dwell (there) for aye: a promise to be prayed for from thy Lord."

States whatsoever is wished will be fulfilled for ever. Just keep this point behind that Paradise exists or not because we are here to debate for Quran challenge to produce a single verse there unto.

Now bring any single statement like Quran defines Paradise from any scripture that you listed above.
Do not bring broken pieces of verses from colorful scriptures. Just bring the greater statement as compared to Quran about Paradise.
And while keep in mind that Quran is revealed unto Muhammad pbuh who was illiterate prophet, can you defeat this mere challenge?

 

[Breathe]

These different religion are dividing people divinly, do you know? Islam is in favor of unity through one God. So!

Sikhism believes in One God..

Now bring any single statement like Quran defines Paradise from any scripture that you listed above.

Do not bring broken pieces of verses from colorful scriptures. Just bring the greater statement as compared to Quran about Paradise.

[SIZE=+1]ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਨ ਠਾਗੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Neither death nor deception comes to those,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Jin kai rām vasai man māhi.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]within whose minds the Lord abides.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]The devotees of many worlds dwell there.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]As He commands, so they exist.[/SIZE]


Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

In my view, the Guru Granth Sahib is a truly beautiful book and equals the Qur'an in forms of eloquence.

One of the Sikh gurus created the alphabet (the first guru I believe?), the second guru standardized it - and they penned it themselves. Every word in the Guru Granth Sahib, was written by the gurus themselves. No scribes needed.

Does that mean that the Qur'an's challenge has been met?
Doubt it.

 

[maro]

In my view, the Guru Granth Sahib is a truly beautiful book and equals the Qur'an in forms of eloquence.

I am afraid you are not qualified to judge the eloquence of the quran because the quran is not the english translation of its meanings..the quran is arabic

Does that mean that the Qur'an's challenge has been met?
Doubt it.

the challenge is in arabic too..

 

[Breathe]

I am afraid you are not qualified to judge the eloquence of the quran because the quran is not the english translation of its meanings..the quran is arabic

Nobody is fit to judge, it's an impossible challenge because there are no criteria.
Can a Muslim judge? No, they're not impartial.
Can God judge? Maybe, but He isn't going to tell us anything about it any time soon.
Can a non-Muslim judge? No, I doubt it - we may also not be impartial.
Can an Arab judge? Doubtful...

the challenge is in arabic too..

But the Torah was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, the Injil in Aramaic and Koine Greek... so why would the challenge be confined to only Arabic?

But...

Surat Ad-Du'a ("The Prayer")

• And when the disciples said to Christ:
  O our Lord teach us a prayer that pleases the Lord of the worlds. (1)
  (wa idh kalal hawari'yoona lil-maseehi rabbana allimna salatan turdee
  rabbal alameen)
  
  He said, so lift your hearts toward heaven
  and do not reiterate the words (do not be loquacious) like the hypocrites. (2)
  (kala farfa'oo ilal alya'ee kuloobakum wala tukarrirul kalama
  kalmunafikeen)
  
  It is He who made of you spiritual children for Him
  when He breathed into your chests granting you a spirit of your own
  so devote yourselves to him with reverence. (3)
  (huwal ladhi sawakumu bir-roohi abna'an lahoo idh nafakha min roohihi fi
  sudoorikum roohan lakum faknutoo lahu khashi'een)
  
  And address Him as children {do}. (4)
  (wakhatiboohu kabaneen)
  
  Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;
  thy kingdom come; thy will be done, for ever and ever. (5)
  (abanal ladhi fissamawati liyatakaddas'ismuka, liya'ti malakootuka,
  litakun mashee'atuka, ila abadil abideen)
  
  On earth as it is in heaven, at all times and all places. (6)
  (kama fissama'ee kadhalika ala ardi fi kulli makanen wafi kulli heen)
  
  O our Lord, our daily bread give us this day
  and forgive us our trespasses, O the most merciful. (7)
  (Rabbana khubzana kafafana a'tinal yawma waghfer lana dhunoobana
  ya arhamar rahimeen.)
  
  As we forgive all of those who trespass against us. (8)
  (kama naghfiru nahnoo likulli man kanoo bihakkina mukhti'een)
  
  Our Lord, and lead us not into temptation;
  Against the devil thine aid we truly seek. (9)
  (Rabbana wala tudkhilna fi tajrubaten inna alashirriri bika nasta'een)
  
  
  www.suralikeit.com
  Surat Ad-Du'a ("The Prayer")
  
  
  
  Even this fails in the Qur'an's challenge to a Muslim - to a Muslim, this challenge cannot be met, so how can a Muslim say "This is equal to the Qur'an"?
  
  Without any criteria, it's not a challenge. If I say, "I believe Modern Art is the most beautiful art ever. Prove I'm wrong!"
  Or "Mozart is the best composer, his songs are from God, he was also deaf later on in life - write a song like his whilst being deaf, or you fail the challenge" - how can you? It's impossible.

 

[maro]

Nobody is fit to judge, it's an impossible challenge because there are no criteria.
Can a Muslim judge? No, they're not impartial.
Can God judge? Maybe, but He isn't going to tell us anything about it any time soon.
Can a non-Muslim judge? No, I doubt it - we may also not be impartial.
Can an Arab judge? Doubtful...

And why do you need objective scientific criteria in judging something that is not material ?...how do people judge the eloquence of language ?...music? ...beauty ?...subjectively...Right ?
and although there's no ruler to measure all those..there still be a human trend of agreement about them..
so ,let's say that the challenge is subjective...and that it was initially directed towards people who are not just arabs...but telling poems was an instinct for them...and their ears were extraordianrily sensitive to arabic
let's say that the quran was directing his challenge to every person separately...and that the quran is not asking you to take my word on its eloquence...he's asking you to judge it by yourself..according to your own taste

The absence of objective criteria for something doesn't mean it can't be judged or can't be compared to another of the same type...it only means that everyone has to be the judge for himself...without taking someone else 's word as 'trusted'..

But the Torah was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, the Injil in Aramaic and Koine Greek... so why would the challenge be confined to only Arabic?

because the quran is arabic...and the challenge is to bring anything like the quran....so what do the torah and injil have to do with it ?!!!!

Even this fails in the Qur'an's challenge to a Muslim - to a Muslim, this challenge cannot be met, so how can a Muslim say "This is equal to the Qur'an"?

• 
  Without any criteria, it's not a challenge. If I say, "I believe Modern Art is the most beautiful art ever. Prove I'm wrong!"
  Or "Mozart is the best composer, his songs are from God, he was also deaf later on in life - write a song like his whilst being deaf, or you fail the challenge" - how can you? It's impossible.

I guess i have already answered that...but again...I don't have to prove you are wrong...if you think so..fine...it's PERSONAL

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Odion]Nobody is fit to judge, it's an impossible challenge because there are no criteria.
Can a Muslim judge? No, they're not impartial.
Can God judge? Maybe, but He isn't going to tell us anything about it any time soon.
Can a non-Muslim judge? No, I doubt it - we may also not be impartial.
Can an Arab judge? Doubtful...(End Quote)

Response: I find it amusing at how people come up with more reasons to be in denial of the authenticity of the qur'an. You have a challenge laid out in front of you, you ask for proof, and yet you consistantly ignore the challenge.

As I sit back and watch the consistant strategy of making the challenge seem irrational, it seems the new concept of the non-muslim is to say, "well who's going to be the judge?" This, supposedly, is the lagit reason to not accept the challenge. So my question is, "why the hypocrisy?" You see, you made a decision that the qur'an challenge needs a judge. I'm asking the question, who was the judge in that decision? Who was the judge in the decision that the qur'an was "not" from Allah? Who was the judge that Muhammad was not a prophet? Who was the judge that says he spread the religion by force? Yet, when it comes to answering the challenge, you now ask for and need a judge? The hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[England my lionheart]

It definately is a challenge but only in conext of the time of Muhammed as it was addressed to the unbelievers/doubters of the time and this is where it makes sense.
The unbelievers for example understood Arabic and held poetry and prose in the highest esteem and its interesting that al-Nabigha (al-Nabighah al-Dhubyani, real name Ziyad ibn Muawiyah) (Arabic: النابغة الذبياني) (c. 535 - c. 604), Arabian Christian poet is a good example of pre Islamic poetry.
So yes it was a challenge but only local to that time,why would it be otherwise as the challenge isn't universal and not open to everyone,for example there are people in the world who have never even heard of Islam let alone the challenge,if it were universal everyone would know and understand the challenge which is pretty obvious nobody does,not even Muslims.

 

[Fatihah]

It definately is a challenge but only in conext of the time of Muhammed as it was addressed to the unbelievers/doubters of the time and this is where it makes sense.
The unbelievers for example understood Arabic and held poetry and prose in the highest esteem and its interesting that al-Nabigha (al-Nabighah al-Dhubyani, real name Ziyad ibn Muawiyah) (Arabic: 'DF') 'D0(J'FJ) (c. 535 - c. 604), Arabian Christian poet is a good example of pre Islamic poetry.
So yes it was a challenge but only local to that time,why would it be otherwise as the challenge isn't universal and not open to everyone,for example there are people in the world who have never even heard of Islam let alone the challenge,if it were universal everyone would know and understand the challenge which is pretty obvious nobody does,not even Muslims.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? And besides, all of this is irrelevant when you yourself have already admitted that the challenge is impossible for you to do.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? And besides, all of this is irrelevant when you yourself have already admitted that the challenge is impossible for you to do.

No its not irrelevant and you know it,it is pretty obvious from the differing versions if what the challenge is from different Muslims that nobody can define the criteria of the Judge yet my post makes absolute sense,so for proof look at the challenge in the context of the time.

 

[Fatihah]

No its not irrelevant and you know it,it is pretty obvious from the differing versions if what the challenge is from different Muslims that nobody can define the criteria of the Judge yet my post makes absolute sense,so for proof look at the challenge in the context of the time.

Response: Exactly. You have no proof. Thanks for the clarification. However, we do have proof of England saying that the challenge is in fact impossible for him to do, thus confirming his denial to the authenticity of the qur'an.

 

[England my lionheart]

In fact its interesting to note that poetry was held in such esteem that pre Islam it was hung in the Kabba where people would gather to hear and read it so thats why poetry/prose was such a good medium for Islam.